[00:00:11] <cheeser> ~next
[00:00:11] <javabot> Another satisfied customer. Next!
[00:00:21] <Deeewayne> I'm new to Java and not trying to start a religious war, but does anyone here use vim (or your favorite editor) + Makefile instead of an IDE?
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[00:01:08] <cablop> not me... i used jcreator in the past, then moved to eclipse
[00:01:35] <Deeewayne> I decided against the IDE because I didn't want the IDE to hide anything from me so I can learn how it all works
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[00:01:57] <cablop> don't worry elipse won't hide you anything
[00:02:19] <cheeser> javabot: Deeewayne++
[00:02:19] <javabot> deeewayne has a karma level of 1, cheeser
[00:02:24] <cheeser> vim is perfect.
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[00:02:43] <Deeewayne> cheeser, thanks!
[00:02:46] <Yivz> cablop, Does Scanner for input work in eclipse?
[00:02:47] <cheeser> spending a few with just vim is the "Ideal Way(tm)"
[00:02:59] <cheeser> ~~ cablop newbie ide
[00:03:01] <javabot> cablop, Newbies shouldn't start with IDEs.  It's important to learn the environment and fundamentals of a language before offloading those to an IDE.  Learn about packages and imports and classpaths.  Learn how to compile and use the JDK tools.  Get some basic grasp of the API layout.  Learn how to do things then switch to an IDE to do them faster.  See http://tinyurl.com/yvks48 and and http://tinyurl.com/2cpn6o for more info.
[00:03:32] <cablop> id idn't see he must start with an ide
[00:03:39] <r1nu-> i think that javabot knows more than anyone hahahahaha! ^^
[00:04:09] <cablop> *i didn't say he must start with the IDE, i just said he can trust Eclipse for not hiding him things, making Eclipse his next step
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[00:04:31] <r1nu-> that's the reason that i want to programming my girlfriend ^^
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[00:04:50] <cablop> i don't recommend netbeans as ide, too complex and heavy... also using some non-java things to accomplish things
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[00:05:22] <cablop> r1nu just don't use open source packages or you must share her XD
[00:05:43] <openback> can someone point me to documentation on method declarations in the form of method(Object... params) ? I can't seem  to find docs on that
[00:06:05] <cablop> huh?
[00:06:11] <r1nu-> cablop: it will be closed source (sorry) ^^
[00:06:15] <cablop> the whole api and javacdocs are that way, isn't it?
[00:06:17] <da_shadow> openback: http://java.sun.com/j2se/1.5.0/docs/guide/language/varargs.html
[00:06:19] <Deeewayne> cheeser, thanks again.  Have a great weekend
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[00:06:26] <cheeser> Deeewayne: sure.  you too.
[00:06:33] <cablop> r1nu it? nope she <-
[00:06:45] <openback> da_shadow: thanks, I was hunting around for a bit!
[00:06:47] <cheeser> ~~ openback varargs
[00:06:48] <javabot> openback, varargs is http://java.sun.com/j2se/1.5.0/docs/guide/language/varargs.html
[00:06:53] <cheeser> 8^)=
[00:07:02] <r1nu-> no, women are 'it' :)
[00:07:10] <cablop> ...
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[00:07:14] <r1nu-> ^^
[00:07:19] <cablop> ¬¬
[00:07:19] <r1nu-> j/k
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[00:27:39] <LordDoskias> what's the easiest way to play a wav file in java - all examples on the internet with audioclip doesn't work ;-(
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[00:29:26] <RLa> why don't they work?
[00:29:49] <The_Birdman> ~doesn't work
[00:29:50] <javabot> The_Birdman, doesn't work is useless.  Tell us what it is, what you want it to do, and what it is doing.  Consider putting some code and any errors on a pastebin.  (use ~pastebin for suggestions)
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[00:30:14] <robink> Anyone know why an ant buildfile couldn't find clojure.lang.Compile even though the clojure jar is in the classpath?
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[00:31:03] <LordDoskias> http://privatepaste.com/c5ff3200ff < = i have no idea
[00:31:14] <The_Birdman> is the javac task using the classpath(referencing the jar)? robink  ^
[00:31:15] <LordDoskias> it says nullpointerreference at the getcodebase() line
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[00:31:54] <The_Birdman> LordDoskias: well, you need to point to the right path, also see the topic about applets
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[00:32:33] <LordDoskias> okay, is there an alternative? 'cause the java sound api with all the mixers and stuff seem like an overkill for what i want to do
[00:32:55] <The_Birdman> LordDoskias: http://java.sun.com/j2se/1.4.2/docs/guide/misc/applet.html, see if the file is at the location that it's expected to be found
[00:33:19] <LordDoskias> The_Birdman: the applet is broken even if i have the system.out.println line
[00:33:22] <SeriousWorm> LordDoskias: that code is just wrong
[00:33:22] <hiredman> robink: how are you setting the classpath? I don't mess with ant much but I am pretty sure it ignores things like CLASSPATH in the env in favor of classpath properties set in xml files
[00:33:33] <robink> hiredman: Ah, OK
[00:33:49] <SeriousWorm> first of all, you're comparing labels. ok, you're comparing labels, but then put the strings (labels) in a constant so if you change it in one place, you don't have to change it in another place.
[00:33:50] <The_Birdman> robink: see the javac target, you need a ref id
[00:34:01] <The_Birdman> for the classpath to use
[00:34:05] <SeriousWorm> third, String comparison is done using .equals(), not ==
[00:34:09] <robink> The_Birdman: Ah, OK
[00:34:23] <LordDoskias> SeriousWorm: this is just some random code i grabbed from the internet i want a PoC to see that it actually works
[00:34:36] <SeriousWorm> LordDoskias: oh, ok. it's just ugly though. :)
[00:35:04] <LordDoskias> yeah, but what's worse - it doesn't work, actually no code i've tried is working
[00:35:10] <The_Birdman> LordDoskias: if the wav file is not at the codebase address you can't expect it to be found
[00:35:18] <LordDoskias> any code that involves the applet
[00:35:34] <LordDoskias> The_Birdman: yeah, but if i want to just print getcodebase() i shouldn't get nullpointer exception, should i?
[00:35:53] <LordDoskias> i've tried even with the commented system.out.println line
[00:35:59] <The_Birdman> LordDoskias: are you running it as a standalone app?
[00:36:06] <The_Birdman> instead of inside the browser?
[00:36:25] <The_Birdman> anyway good luck
[00:36:43] <LordDoskias> yes, i am
[00:36:51] <LordDoskias> so i guess this might be the problem...
[00:37:19] <LordDoskias> but - another question is still valid - is there an alternative that doesn't involve writing more than 20 lines of code?
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[00:53:48] <LordDoskias> http://privatepaste.com/7900a035e2 <= this code doesn't produce any errors but doesn't produce any sound as well
[00:53:51] <LordDoskias> anyone any ideas?
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[01:05:12] <shockwave> Is the evalution order of arguments guaranteed in java, or is it like C/C++ and is *not* guaranteed?
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[01:06:16] <The_Birdman> ~eventbus
[01:06:16] <javabot> The_Birdman, I have no idea what eventbus is.
[01:06:59] <LPedro> c/cpp not guaranteed?
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[01:07:19] <LPedro> shockwave, u mean by standard?
[01:07:26] <FauxFaux> shockwave: Yes, it's guaranteed.
[01:07:34] <FauxFaux> Including with exceptions etc.
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[01:08:07] <shockwave> LPedro, yes. THe standard specifically does not guarantee the evalution order of function arguments.
[01:08:38] <LPedro> ic
[01:08:39] <shockwave> LPedro, meaning the second argument could be evaluated before the first, etc.
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[01:38:02] <The_Birdman> ~eventbus is <reply>EventBus is a Pub-sub Event broadcasting mechanism, Swing-oriented(https://eventbus.dev.java.net/)
[01:38:02] <javabot> OK, The_Birdman.
[01:38:13] <The_Birdman> ~eventbus
[01:38:14] <javabot> EventBus is a Pub-sub Event broadcasting mechanism, Swing-oriented(https://eventbus.dev.java.net/)
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[01:39:53] <oorza> In the Set.toArray(T[]) method, does it matter what size you specify for T[]?  Is there any difference between .toArray(new T[0]) and .toArray(new T[1024])?
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[01:41:23] <The_Birdman> oorza: I always use toArray(new Array[collection.size()] , the only difference would probably be initial capacity, but check javadocs
[01:41:45] <oorza> Javadocs don't say anything that I can find or I wouldn't have asked :P
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[01:41:55] <ztj> oorza: the javadocs do explain it, actually
[01:42:01] <oorza> Link please?
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[01:42:15] <ztj> oorza: they explain that if the passed-in array is large enough to fit the whole collection, it will be used directly, otherwise a new array will be created
[01:42:32] <oorza> So if you're passing in a new Array, it doesn't matter.
[01:42:43] <ztj> yes, it does matter
[01:43:09] <ztj> say you had a set with 10,000 items in it, and you passed in an array that was 9,999 long
[01:43:18] <ztj> another new array that was 10,000 long would be created
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[01:43:49] <oorza> If you passed in an array with enough elements or typecast, I mean.
[01:43:50] <ztj> that would be wasteful and pointless, so either you make it so you can avoid that mistake or you just create a statically accessible, 0-length "example" array to use over and over
[01:44:16] <ztj> you can't typecast arrays like normal objects
[01:44:24] <ztj> there are different limits
[01:44:32] <ztj> so you're best off passing a correct example array
[01:44:48] <oorza> Correct being the right size or 0-length?
[01:44:55] <ztj> correct being the right type
[01:45:01] <ztj> and the size issue depends on your collection
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[01:45:31] <ztj> If you can be sure that between the time you create the example array, and the time that toArray is being executed that the collection will not change size, then I'd create the correct size for that example
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[01:45:52] <ztj> if you can't guarantee that, then I would create a 0 length example one time and reuse it each time you call .toArray
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[01:48:22] <ztj> here's that link http://java.sun.com/j2se/1.5.0/docs/api/java/util/Collection.html#toArray(T[])
[01:48:56] <oorza> So if I know for a fact that I'm calling .subList(0, 30).toArray() I should be calling .subList(0, 30).toArray(new T[31]); ?
[01:49:37] <ztj> wouldn't that .subList call produce a 30-count list?
[01:49:51] <oorza> Yeah :|
[01:49:53] <Gracenotes> like sublist, substring doesn't allocate new array-space
[01:50:25] <Gracenotes> er. like substring. Anyway, both are reasonable efficient. The main worry is that the sub list class defines toArray right, right? right.
[01:50:45] <oorza> ztj, so T[30], then?
[01:50:46] <Gracenotes> okay, what was I doing..
[01:50:49] <ztj> Gracenotes: it follow the contract of toArray in either case, doesn't matter if it's a view
[01:50:52] <ztj> oorza: yes
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[01:51:38] <Gracenotes> ztj: yes, there's an exact equality test, right
[01:52:15] <ztj> oorza: given a bit of thought I'm sure you'll understand the concerns and why I suggest what I suggest, it's not too hard to work with, the most important things to remember are the array casting restrictions, and that there could be a million instructions processed in another thread between a call to .size() and .toArray() in the same expression :)
[01:52:39] <ztj> Gracenotes: whatchoo talkin' bout willis?
[01:52:54] <Gracenotes> meow
[01:52:58] * Gracenotes demands milk
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[01:53:44] <oorza> ztj, yeah, I understand what you mean, but that's not an issue for me as I'm chopping out a static-sized random piece of a Vector, so whether the start offset is 40 or 4502, the size is always going to be 30 ;P
[01:55:08] <ztj> yeah, that's perfectly fine then
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[02:08:18] <TinyTom> Which book should I read after TIJ?
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[02:09:38] <ztj> depends on what you are trying to accomplish
[02:10:04] <ztj> if you're just after more java knowledge, Effective Java is a fine choice
[02:10:08] <TinyTom> a collection of information is always an accomplishment.
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[02:10:32] <ztj> TinyTom: you have  penchant for making useless responses that only vaguely relate to the rest of the discussion
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[02:11:09] <TinyTom> But, I am curious what the next step is, if when finished with TIJ, I understand all the concepts in the book and can create a separate instance of them, what do I learn next?
[02:11:21] <ztj> you learn what you need to learn
[02:11:57] <TinyTom> that is like saying, a dollar earned is a dollar saved.  Yes, it is true, but not helpful.
[02:12:06] <SeriousWorm> TinyTom: try thinking of something that you want to do/code/program. then do it!
[02:12:06] <ztj> It is helpful, you have to know your goals before you can reach them
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[02:12:26] <TinyTom> that works, hmm...
[02:12:30] <SeriousWorm> TinyTom: try the mythical man month :D
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[02:13:07] <SeriousWorm> or these: yosefk.com/c++fqa/
[02:13:11] <ztj> if you're just trying to amass knowledge, you should reconsider focusing on Java specifically, perhaps reading The Art of Computer Programming would be satisfactory
[02:13:30] <ztj> if you just want an edge on other java programmers, in the scope of java, try JCIP
[02:13:48] <ztj> there's lots of paths you can take, so knowing what you personally want to achieve is required to make useful recommendations
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[02:14:13] <hax0r1> is there a way to change the color of stdout text?
[02:14:21] <SeriousWorm> hax0r1: no.
[02:14:22] <ztj> not a standard way
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[02:14:46] <ztj> there's some third party libraries that work in certain scenarios that might be of interest though
[02:14:49] <ztj> ~jcurses
[02:14:49] <javabot> Console/terminal support: See JavaCurses - http://sourceforge.net/projects/javacurses/ and Charva - http://www.pitman.co.za/projects/charva/ and Jcurzez - http://www.nongnu.org/jcurzez/  and also "Console Window with a JTextArea Component" - http://javaalmanac.com/egs/javax.swing.text/ta_Console.html and Java 6.0's java.io.Console class.
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[02:14:59] <hax0r1> ok cool! thanks
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[02:17:23] <Fendaril> WOw looks like I was invited to #java
[02:17:24] <Fendaril> lol
[02:17:46] <Fendaril> Ok wy no applets?
[02:17:56] <ztj> ~why no applets
[02:17:56] <javabot> ztj, I have no idea what why no applets is.
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[02:18:05] <ztj> oh I'm thinking of why no homework
[02:18:07] <ztj> ~applets
[02:18:07] <javabot> Check the topic, read http://javachannel.net/wiki/pmwiki.php/FAQ/Applets - Basically, we don't support them here.  Try the sun forums at http://tinyurl.com/2q2hog; consider the new Windows/OS X/Linux 32/64bit JNLP-compatible "Plugin2" from Java 6u10 (http://java.sun.com/javase/6/webnotes/6u10/plugin2/index.html)
[02:19:02] <Fendaril> You guys would do homework for 75 bucks an hour
[02:19:14] <ztj> someone might
[02:19:21] <ztj> I wouldn't
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[02:20:22] <Fendaril> "If you want us to do it for you, bids start at $75/hr, minimum of one-hour. "
[02:20:28] <Fendaril> not even per hour?
[02:21:09] <ztj> Fendaril: you're taking the factoid a little too seriously
[02:21:23] <ztj> most people in here would view paid-for homework as unethical
[02:21:39] <ztj> the price refers to a general average rate for hourly contract java development
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[02:25:01] <b0nn> Hmm, I'm trying to figure out Java applications over the web as well
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[02:25:15] <b0nn> what is the name of apps that are delivered using JBoss and Tomcat?
[02:26:39] <karstensrage> webapps
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[02:27:12] <ztj> other related keywords include servlets and jsp
[02:27:23] <ztj> and Java EE in general I s'pose
[02:27:23] <b0nn> recommend?
[02:27:30] <ztj> ~jee
[02:27:30] <javabot> for information and tutorials on JavaEE see http://java.sun.com/javaee/6/docs/tutorial/doc/
[02:27:44] <ztj> or perhaps of tomcat has their own tutorial
[02:27:50] <ztj> each app server/servlet container is a bit different
[02:27:59] <ztj> it's only the APIs that are standardized
[02:28:07] <b0nn> It's my understanding that JBoss is heavier duty?
[02:28:21] <ztj> it's a whole app server
[02:28:29] <ztj> a servlet container is a subset of an app server
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[02:28:41] <b0nn> ok
[02:28:42] <ztj> I think jboss uses tomcat for its servlet container actually
[02:29:15] <b0nn> I think I need enterprise level delivery systems
[02:29:24] <b0nn> with that in mind I will start with JBoss
[02:29:33] <b0nn> er, I think I will :)
[02:29:43] <ztj> be prepared to be overwhelmed :) but nothing wrong with jboss in and of itself
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[02:29:53] <b0nn> lol, k
[02:29:56] <ztj> if you were just wanting to start with basic web/jsp/servlets I'd probbaly just use jetty
[02:29:56] <Fendaril> does anyone know how to maek a jar that doesnt require you to run at command line?
[02:30:01] <ztj> and move on from there eventually
[02:30:05] <ztj> glassfish is another option, btw
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[02:30:15] <ztj> ~executable jar
[02:30:15] <javabot> ztj, I have no idea what executable jar is.
[02:30:19] <ztj> ~~ Fendaril jar
[02:30:20] <javabot> Fendaril, jar is Java ARchive See  http://java.sun.com/tutorial/jar and http://java.sun.com/javase/6/docs/technotes/guides/jar/index.html Also see fatjar and jarjar
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[02:54:47] <Fendaril> Anyone use java on linux?
[02:55:02] <b0nn> I do
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[02:56:12] <ztj> I used linux on java once
[02:56:33] <eirikb> I have used linux on java as well :)
[02:56:33] <Fendaril> b0nn: is jdk 6 what i want?
[02:56:34] <ztj> And you can too! http://www-jpc.physics.ox.ac.uk/home_home.html
[02:56:53] <eirikb> ztj: Yeah
[02:56:53] <dinesh___> any idea on how to pass the user/pass to JMS on Glassfish when using the flat file authentication? (not ldap not jaas)
[02:57:25] <b0nn> I am using sun-java6-jdk
[02:57:35] <Fendaril> ok thanks
[02:57:35] <Fendaril> eclipse?
[02:57:51] <b0nn> eclipse comes with it's own java compiler
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[02:57:55] <b0nn> IIRC
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[02:58:12] <b0nn> gcj or something
[02:58:15] <ztj> no
[02:58:17] <ztj> no no no
[02:58:21] <b0nn> it used to
[02:58:27] <ztj> it has never come with gcj
[02:58:31] <b0nn> it used to be a different version than calling javac
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[02:58:40] <ztj> eclipse does have its own compiler, it's not gcj
[02:58:47] <b0nn> yeah
[02:58:52] <b0nn> I do forget the name of it
[02:58:54] <ztj> but eclipse does not have its own vm, so you still need a vm, and you should just get the jdk
[02:59:20] <b0nn> I recall hating it because it wasn't up to date when I was forced to use it
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[03:00:37] <SeriousWorm> ztj: you mean just the jre?
[03:01:15] <Fendaril> what java ide do you use then?
[03:01:21] <Fendaril> your goiong to say netbeans right?
[03:01:26] <ztj> SeriousWorm: I said what I meant
[03:01:34] <ztj> as a programmer you're going to want the jdk
[03:01:38] <ztj> eventually
[03:01:38] <SeriousWorm> ztj: i don't get it
[03:01:44] <SeriousWorm> ah. now i do.
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[03:02:14] <SeriousWorm> i read "just get the jdk" as "get just the jdk" :)
[03:02:26] <SeriousWorm> english sucks.
[03:02:37] <SeriousWorm> (my comprehension at 3am too)
[03:03:05] <Fendaril> JPC looks like it could run windows
[03:03:06] <Fendaril> wow
[03:03:33] <SeriousWorm> http://www-jpc.physics.ox.ac.uk/ is this a joke? whenever i click on anything, it redirects me to the Java download page
[03:03:46] <SeriousWorm> to here: http://java.com/en/download/windows_manual.jsp?host=java.com&locale=en
[03:04:16] <Fendaril> do you ahve JRE?
[03:04:30] <Fendaril> becuase you need more then the JDK to run java
[03:04:32] <SeriousWorm> no, i code in assembly. </sarcasm> of course, both the JRE and the JDK
[03:04:51] <SeriousWorm> although, just checked, JRE update 17, JDK update 16
[03:04:52] <Fendaril> Oh, then JPC hates you :(
[03:04:57] <SeriousWorm> latest is update 18
[03:05:06] <SeriousWorm> and i'm using Opera 10.50.
[03:05:27] <SeriousWorm> I hate whoever coded the JPC site.
[03:05:30] <ztj> perhaps your plugin settings are messed up
[03:05:39] <ztj> because it works fine for me
[03:05:40] <SeriousWorm> no, Java works fine (applets, JNLP)
[03:05:52] <SeriousWorm> maybe they put a firefox or IE-only check..
[03:05:58] <ztj> I use Safari
[03:05:59] <SeriousWorm> or they just want me to update to update 18 :D
[03:06:14] <ztj> I only have 17
[03:06:17] <SeriousWorm> i am going to do that now.
[03:06:23] <SeriousWorm> hm. don't know then :/
[03:06:31] <Fendaril> Or get safari
[03:06:41] <Fendaril> why not use firefox ztj
[03:06:46] <Fendaril> its the best web browser out
[03:06:48] <SeriousWorm> Fendaril: nope, I won't get IE, opera is pretty good on win7 :) thanks
[03:06:52] <ztj> I disagree
[03:06:58] <ztj> I think it's stupidly bulky and slow
[03:07:01] <SeriousWorm> ok, lets not turn this into #browser-wars
[03:07:01] <Fendaril> opera is full of vulnerabilities
[03:07:04] <ztj> and I prefer the simplicity of Safari
[03:07:05] <SeriousWorm> Fendaril: lol. like what?
[03:07:20] <SeriousWorm> ztj: why not use lynx? telnet?
[03:07:28] <SeriousWorm> chrome? it's as simple as you get.
[03:07:29] <ztj> why would I do that?
[03:07:32] <Fendaril> for example, A site said it needed opera to run well, i went on it and got a blunk of malware
[03:07:34] <ztj> there's no point in chrome
[03:07:49] <SeriousWorm> ztj: there's no simpler browser than chrome. therefore, your argument is flawed.
[03:07:54] <ztj> Why would I go installing additional browsers when I like the one that comes with my computer?
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[03:08:01] <Fendaril> chrome is a giant we browser with a gui
[03:08:03] <SeriousWorm> ztj: oh you're on a .. (shudders) mac ?
[03:08:11] <SeriousWorm> sorry. :(
[03:08:12] <Fendaril> oh my goodness
[03:08:24] <_kmh_> chrome is bad as it gets
[03:08:26] <ztj> of course, anything else is masochism
[03:08:30] <Fendaril> worst new i heard since MS was releasing another os
[03:08:37] <_kmh_> well maybe aside from IE
[03:08:43] * SeriousWorm is into S/M :D
[03:08:58] <_kmh_> that explains it :)
[03:09:23] <SeriousWorm> anycase; opera 10.50 ftw. its like I have to code in C when I could have just used Java.
[03:09:51] <SeriousWorm> (talking about Windows here. opera is apparently a bit slowish on Linux, and don't really know about Mac).
[03:09:54] <Fendaril> Opera sucks
[03:10:00] <_kmh_> unfortunately opera doesn't render wikipedia properly, whiuch can be quite annoying at times
[03:10:05] <SeriousWorm> _kmh_: what?
[03:10:13] <SeriousWorm> _kmh_: examples please.
[03:10:24] <Fendaril> no need
[03:10:27] <_kmh_> SeriousWorm : it has problems with wp footnotes
[03:10:29] <Fendaril> jus topen it
[03:10:37] <Fendaril> once you open opera
[03:10:38] <SeriousWorm> ? it works perfectly
[03:10:40] <Fendaril> you should close it
[03:10:41] <_kmh_> Fendaril : i'm using opera daily
[03:10:50] <SeriousWorm> _kmh_: the bug is present on 10.50?
[03:10:52] <Fendaril> _kmh_:why? use firefox
[03:10:56] <ztj> Fendaril: stfu man, seriously, we don't need your trolling
[03:11:05] <Fendaril> ztj:Sorry
[03:11:30] <_kmh_> SeriousWorm : and it occasionaly doesn't display footnotes (for whatever reason, looks like random pattern, but lotsa people have that issue)
[03:12:00] <ztj> I used to use opera back when I was using Windows, and I found odd and inconsistent rendering errors also
[03:12:05] <_kmh_> Fendaril : i do as well, but firefox often sucks at other stuff, where opera is better
[03:12:10] <ztj> and that was quite a while ago, so it's sad if they're still getting that
[03:12:10] <SeriousWorm> _kmh_: seriously, I've used wikipedia for years on Opera, and never even *heard* about that issue. not saying it's false, just that I personally have no clue what you are talking about.
[03:12:55] <_kmh_> SeriousWorm . well than you've heard it now, you need to talk to regular WP editors using opera, they will sooner or later run into that problem
[03:12:56] <Fendaril> ok netBeans or eclipse
[03:12:59] <Fendaril> or other
[03:13:16] <SeriousWorm> _kmh_: right.. I'm just a reader; I only rarely edit pages
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[03:13:19] <_kmh_> SeriousWorm : it is at least around from versions 9.x to 10.x so far
[03:13:23] <SeriousWorm> ok
[03:14:21] <_kmh_> SeriousWorm : and the pattern is random it doesn't happen always, but often enough if youedit regularly. I don't quite get what opera does wrong there and that only shows up occasionally
[03:14:38] <SeriousWorm> so you see the relevant code in source? it goes away on page reload?
[03:14:41] <ztj> probably a z-order issue
[03:14:52] <_kmh_> SeriousWorm : aside from that wp issue i'm fine with opera and definitely prefer it to firefox
[03:15:00] <SeriousWorm> ok, nice.
[03:15:02] <ztj> or perhaps a MIDAS implementation error
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[03:15:28] <SeriousWorm> ..what?
[03:15:47] <_kmh_> SeriousWorm : in the edit window everything is fine, but the superscript links for the footnotes on the text are missing sometimes
[03:15:56] <SeriousWorm> ok
[03:16:11] <_kmh_> but it is usually just some footnotes not all
[03:16:18] <_kmh_> it is somewhat weird
[03:16:26] <ztj> weird
[03:17:08] <SeriousWorm> googling gets me this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Footnotes/Archive_1
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[03:18:16] <SeriousWorm> "It will probably have something to do with how the CSS rules for class=plainlinks and class=external are handled. class="external" means "add a little arrow icon to mark an external link", while class="plainlinks" means "no, don't add the arrow icon". IE is apparently leaving space for the arrow icon, but not displaying the icon itself. Opera does the same thing. The problem might be due to a browser bug, or an error in the CSS, but either way it is proba
[03:19:17] <SeriousWorm> here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Footnotes/Archive_1#External_reference_symbol
[03:19:17] <SeriousWorm> related?
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[03:20:15] <_kmh_> no seems to be something different
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[03:20:39] <_kmh_> basically the problem is with display the <ref> </ref> tags
[03:20:55] <SeriousWorm> ok.
[03:21:27] <SeriousWorm> just saying, i would hope it's fixed because 10.50 has just been released. it is a major new version so maybe they fixed it.
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[03:27:50] <LPedro> hum maybe linux on java in a celeron isn't such a good idea
[03:28:21] <robbyoconnor> why not?
[03:28:35] <LPedro> i can barely move the cursor
[03:28:58] <LPedro> anyway i blame the celeron
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[03:32:58] <b0nn> http://wiki.eclipse.org/Jetty/Tutorial/Jetty_HelloWorld
[03:33:13] <pr3d4t0r> LPedro: Add more memory.
[03:33:15] <b0nn> why on earth do they include eclipse libraries
[03:34:01] <robbyoconnor> how much ram
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[03:37:34] <The_Birdman> LPedro: using windows on celeron isn't a good idea either use a window manager and the bare minimum or increase memory
[03:38:18] <LPedro> my conclusion is that using a celeron isn't a good idea at all
[03:38:34] <LPedro> company pc anyway
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[03:47:20] <robbyoconnor> LPedro: how much Ram?
[03:47:26] <LPedro> 1gb
[03:47:54] <LPedro> even on low ram i don't think that memory is an issue
[03:49:09] <robbyoconnor> what is the max amount the board can handle?
[03:49:42] <LPedro> maybe 3gb max
[03:50:00] <LPedro> but the lack of processor cache holds the majority of the lag problemas heh
[03:50:24] <robbyoconnor> try upping the RAM
[03:50:32] <robbyoconnor> before you blame shit :P
[03:51:03] <LPedro> i would still blame the celeron
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[03:52:35] <LPedro> i lived from the 640k ram, i ran heavier stuff with 512mb
[03:52:57] <LPedro> so i guess i know what to blame
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[04:04:13] <AMcBain> I'll hit up you guys first, then try elsewhere, but is there a good work around (that doesn't feel like it is one) for not being able to implement the same interface twice on a class with different generic parameters (because they all resolve to Object, they're effectively the same at compile time)? My Simple Event Library has a generic interface for accepting listeners, but if you wanted an event object type of String and Runnable then String and Callable (for
[04:04:13] <AMcBain>  stupid example), you can't.
[04:04:47] <AMcBain> I'd like to try to avoid solutions that involve passing Class objects around, but I'm just looking to see if there's something simplish I haven't given thought to.
[04:05:37] <AMcBain> ah crap. C&P failure. Simple Event Library is just an event dispatching library that takes in event objects and passes them to listeners registered for an event of a certain type.
[04:05:59] <ztj> AMcBain: no
[04:06:34] <AMcBain> I kinda figured that, but I was hoping anyway ...
[04:06:39] <ztj> you won't be able to use generics to differentiate those things
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[04:07:11] <AMcBain> that's exactly the problem, the interface's generic paramters resolve to Object at run time, so you can't implement it twice (which I knew)
[04:07:42] <AMcBain> a solution would be to forcee Object for the event type and so on, and have a Class object passed in order for me to know, but I find that to be very odd and not so nice to work with.
[04:07:56] <ztj> you could pass in an interface
[04:07:59] <ianp> you're a bit limited in java with types
[04:08:10] <ianp> its possible there are other ways to model what you want
[04:08:20] <ianp> depends on your situation
[04:08:23] <ztj> but yeah, it'd be the Class token for it
[04:08:40] <AMcBain> I can post the library if that helps, but unfortunately I have not written a "how to use" yet, so the best thing to look at is the (now) inadequate unit test class.
[04:08:45] <surial> AMcBain: helpers.
[04:08:58] <surial> AMcBain: Let's say you have 1 class called StringNumberListener, and you'd like to listen to both strings AND numbers.
[04:09:24] <surial> AMcBain: Of course, it can't, so you don't make it implement Listener<String> nor Listener<Number>. Instead, you create two AICLs, one for each.
[04:09:32] <surial> AMcBain: HOld on, I'll pastebin something.
[04:09:34] <surial> ~pastebin
[04:09:34] <javabot> http://rifers.org/paste - Paste the final url after you've pasted your stuff there.
[04:10:29] <AMcBain> http://temp.asmcbain.net/eleven/SimpleEventLibrary.zip if that helps. The library itself is ~4 or so classes (I think) it's just the deps the project aquired before it was extracted to its own independent project that are large.
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[04:10:44] <ianp> try to delegate the responsibility for the different types to the hierarchy of the class with the generic information
[04:10:45] <ianp> maybe a abstract super class for the things that are generic
[04:10:45] <ianp> just stabbing in the dark though
[04:10:45] <ianp> i have done things by passing classes around when i had to
[04:10:45] <ianp> it sucks
[04:10:45] <ianp> or Map<Class<?>, ...> et
[04:10:46] <ianp> etc
[04:10:47] <thepro4ever> does anyone know of a channel for building pcs?
[04:11:13] <surial> AMcBain: http://rifers.org/paste/show/510
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[04:11:30] <surial> AMcBain: It's probably not the best possible way you might want, but it's the best you can do with java.
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[04:12:28] <surial> AMcBain: good? bad? ping? ack? hello? Is this thing on?
[04:12:38] <AMcBain> yeah ... my problem was that I had EventInterface<EventType, ListenerType> and it's possible for the per-event/method dispatcher to have a want/need for two EventInterface implementations (to accept listeners of both types)
[04:12:42] <AMcBain> surial, sorry, was typing
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[04:15:01] <AMcBain> I think I sort of tried to resolve that with the multi-event interface, in that you give it a listener that has both methods for String, and Number, but my implementation of the MultiEventInterface was not to my liking (it works, but it seems like it's a hack because all it does is map those methods back to Strings to use with my first implementation which was per-method)
[04:16:23] <ztj> AMcBain: what are you trying to accomplish anyway? Yet another generic event handling mechanism?
[04:16:55] <surial> AMcBain: Did you review my paste, before I move on with why returning two different things for "T" in "EventInterface<T, whatever>" as a return type is non-sensical design?
[04:17:45] <AMcBain> surial, yes, and the idea isn't to return to different things. the idea is to have addEventListener(EventType1, ListenerType1) and addEventListener(eventType2, ListenerType2)
[04:18:01] <AMcBain> which you've proven can be done via the paste
[04:18:08] <surial> Right.
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[04:18:31] <surial> It's the best java can do, I'm afraid.
[04:18:57] <AMcBain> ztj, Since I originally posted this in a different channel, the lead in was effectively lost. It was created to put a pattern that would have appeared in my code anyway in a common location that could be fixed, improved and be relatively bug free, so that the rest of my code could be cleaner yet achieve what it wants: simple event dispatching.
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[04:19:23] <AMcBain> it only evolved into a separate library when I realized it'd be better on its own than having its development tied to my active projects (as it got copied along)
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[04:19:41] <surial> AMcBain: Oh, there is one alternative. The "SourcesEvents<T>" interfaces that I presume you have now, split it up into concrete SourcesStringEvents and SourcesNumberEvents interfaces. But usually if you are using generics, that really isn't a viable option.
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[04:20:39] <AMcBain> ah, yeah, but could work for small projects where such interfaces would be few
[04:20:53] <ztj> AMcBain: Well the two event models I'm using these days, one is based on path-like expression matching and a whiteboard pattern, and the other around statically defined event types and a registration of handlers associated with those classes (in a couple different ways)
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[04:21:05] <ztj> I feel it's not very valuable to get more complex
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[04:22:52] <ztj> the latter is fairly elegant these days because I'm now doing the registration implicitly through declarative services on OSGi, so I just mark the service component definition with the different event interfaces they provide, and osgi wires it all up for me
[04:23:12] <ztj> prior to that, I just did an old register(InterfaceName.class, ImplementationOfInterfaceName)
[04:23:29] <The_Birdman> AMcBain: use EventListenerList? addListener(ListenerClass, Listener)? for(Listener e : listeners) -> e.doIt() ? yes : no;
[04:23:35] <AMcBain> going back a bit ... what's with the "yet another"? I know there's eventbus if that's what you're thinking of, but I knew of that already and decided it was a bit more complex than I needed at the time. this is also for non-web applications, so some of what can be used there doesn't quite apply
[04:23:49] <ztj> AMcBain: it's an incredibly common pattern
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[04:26:27] <AMcBain> The_Birdman, well, what I have right now is addEventLister(EventObject EventListener), and to fire an event that reaches that listener, on the dispatcher, dispatchEvent(EventObject) or dispatchEvent(EventObject, args);
[04:27:04] <AMcBain> er, there should be a comma between EventObject and EventListener
[04:27:14] <surial> AMcBain: Looked at your source.
[04:27:15] <The_Birdman> AMcBain: I usually aggregate listeners in an 'EventListenerList' and the args are hold by the eventobject
[04:27:45] <The_Birdman> so you deal with it if you know how to, no hustle and no reflection abuse
[04:27:51] <surial> Instead of having this API: someEventInterfaceThing.addEventListener("Foobar", new MyListener());.....
[04:28:04] <AMcBain> The_Birdman, yes, you could pass one event object with all the args, this will also dispatch to methods with multiple args, if for some reason that is what you seem to find usable
[04:28:13] <surial> AMcBain: Instead have: someEventInterfaceThing.as(String.class).addEventListener.....
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[04:29:20] <AMcBain> surial, well, part of it is that the class accepting listeners passes along that stuff to an internal dispatcher, so the problem I ran into was that the outer class couldn't declare the EventInterface more than once, even though it could easily make two dispatcher instances.
[04:29:35] <The_Birdman> surial: that's overcomplicated imho, the goal is usually to aggregate and dispatch listenerOfTypeE.doSomethingWhen(EvenWithContents e)
[04:30:02] <The_Birdman> simple, additional grouping can be performed at some other level
[04:30:29] <AMcBain> the reason for the seapration was so that you don't have to reveal you have a specific dispatcher, but say you accept these interfaces/listeners
[04:30:40] <surial> Well, either way, inner classes are the answer, if there is one.
[04:31:28] <The_Birdman> AMcBain: you end up with very flexible but overcomplicated interfaces imho, and/or reflection abuse
[04:31:36] <surial> Either a method such as "as" which returns an interface type that has the specific generics you wanted, or 1 class that doesn't implement anything along with a bunch of explicit AICLs that are implementations and that just pass through - this last one is useful if you need 2 different signatures but 1 shared state.
[04:32:05] <AMcBain> The_Birdman, well, there's already reflection going on :P
[04:32:12] <surial> Always a bad sign.
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[04:32:22] <AMcBain> but only in the dispatcher itself
[04:32:30] <surial> Sometimes unavoidable. And I see "lombok.jar" in there. That's pleasing to the eye :P
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[04:33:06] <AMcBain> I kept all the reflection limited to the dispatcher, as the idea was that the implementors declaring they accepted listeners were to be simple, and just pass to some sort of internal dispatcher somewhere along the line.
[04:33:16] <surial> AMcBain: Can I offer an entirely different scenario?
[04:33:34] <surial> AMcBain: Instead of, as StringED does, using reflection to turn method names into string-based "commands"...
[04:33:36] <AMcBain> most of it was so that I could call a method on a given listener, and ensuring I had the base method, rather than an instance method (as anonymous inner classes give you)
[04:33:39] <AMcBain> surial, sure
[04:33:53] <surial> AMcBain: Use an annotation, which is applied to a method, containing the command, defaulting to the method's name (with capitals-to-dashes if you like).
[04:33:56] <AMcBain> (yeah, I know that String thing is a hack)
[04:34:16] <surial> AMcBain: Registration is fully automatic, via a SPI discovery-esque mechanism, and a lightweight AP that generates the discovery file.
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[04:34:58] <AMcBain> how would you automate the discovery file?
[04:34:59] <surial> AMcBain: The upshot would be that you register a method as receiving events by annotating it: @AcceptsEvents(name="foo"), and you need to initialize the event dispatch system: "EventDispatcher.init();"
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[04:35:15] <surial> AMcBain: An Annotation Processor that triggers on @AcceptsEvents and creates a file named META-INF/services/whatever.
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[04:35:39] <AMcBain> I think we just killed the "Simple" part of the name ;)
[04:35:55] <AMcBain> but I was pretty unoriginal in naming that library
[04:35:56] <surial> Or as this isn't *exactly* SPI-discovery, probably not META-INF/services, but something else. Your EventDispatcher then uses the classloader to find all versions of META-INF/events/whatever, and reads out the data required to make it work.
[04:36:20] <surial> AMcBain: I don't think so. From the perspective of a user, it's very simple. Annotate all methods and make sure to init the system somewhere during main(), nothing else needed.
[04:36:40] <surial> It even allows fairly natural additions of listeners: Just make sure the class is on the classpath and add a line to the META-INF/events/whatever file listing it.
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[04:36:49] <The_Birdman>  well that surial thinghy seems way overcomplicated for most needs imho, using eventbus for example is a no brainer, similar frameworks will have great success because they're damn simple to use
[04:36:49] <AMcBain> well, until now I had it both ways :P it was (relatively, see the reflection ... ugh) simple for me and the user
[04:36:52] <surial> If your event system re-reads the file from time to time it could be dynamic.
[04:37:15] <surial> What the fuck? It couldn't be simpler than this. It'll be a bit more complicated to write, perhaps. But that's a one-time pain. And you might learn something.
[04:37:35] <AMcBain> hey, I'm not saying it's a bad idea
[04:37:37] <surial> The basic idea here really isn't complicated at all. You use this method:
[04:37:42] <surial> ~javadoc ClassLoader
[04:37:42] <javabot> surial: http://is.gd/4jgRq [JDK: java.lang.ClassLoader]
[04:37:45] <surial> (one sec, I forgot the name)
[04:37:47] <The_Birdman>  hey, I don't think it's a good idea at all
[04:38:03] <surial> ~javadoc ClassLoader.findResources(*)
[04:38:05] <javabot> I don't know of any documentation for ClassLoader.findResources(*)
[04:38:08] <surial> Wha?
[04:38:16] <ojacobson> get
[04:38:23] <surial> ~javadoc ClassLoader.getResources(*)
[04:38:24] <surial> right.
[04:38:24] <javabot> surial: http://is.gd/9NeRc [JDK: java.lang.ClassLoader.getResources(String)]
[04:38:26] <The_Birdman> a = 1 + 2 vs a = (log 0 + xx)
[04:38:38] * ojacobson tips his hat at surial.
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[04:38:46] <surial> You use that method to find descriptors that tell you exactly who wants what.
[04:38:49] <surial> And that's it.
[04:39:08] <surial> To make it somewhat easier to use you add an entirely optional Annotation Processor that generates these descriptors off of an annotation so you don't need to maintain both a source file and a "settings" file.
[04:39:16] <surial> That's all there is to it.
[04:39:42] <surial> The_Birdman: What part of that feels like rocket science to you?
[04:40:04] <The_Birdman> surial: it's not about rocket science
[04:40:05] <SeriousWorm> well, it's not exactly brain surgery now, is it.
[04:40:18] <AMcBain> Can I keep the box to play in after we assemble the rocket?
[04:40:22] <The_Birdman> it's about providing a decent solution for a common problem in a convenient and simple way
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[04:40:52] <surial> The_Birdman: About what then? You're making frivulous accusations this is somehow like writing "1" as "log 0" and generally telling me my plan sucks ass, without giving a glimmer of an indication about what is so complicated about it.
[04:41:24] <surial> You're only telling me that somehow my solution is overcomplicated and that there are more convenient and simpler ways. *WHAT THEN*?
[04:41:35] <The_Birdman> surial, don't take it personal or get over excited, I don't like your idea, seems overkill, I might be right or wrong that's it, take it how you want it ;-)
[04:41:43] <AMcBain> I feel like those television shows where they tri to get someone/thing in the middle to come to either side with "come to me, I {x} you more"
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[04:42:00] <AMcBain> tri? wtf? try*
[04:42:01] <The_Birdman> chill, it's friday night
[04:42:57] <surial> The_Birdman: Good god you're an arrogant asshat.
[04:43:02] <The_Birdman> map<group, eventlisteneraggregate> -> dispatch
[04:43:18] <AMcBain> that's like what it is now
[04:43:29] <surial> I don't see what it being friday night has to do with you being a rude sonofabitch badmouthing ideas with pure conjecture.
[04:43:47] * AMcBain facedesks
[04:43:49] <The_Birdman> well, if it's what you think that's your opinion, just another opinion to me, I'm not here to make war, don't get excited I didn't insult you yet... and I won't
[04:44:03] <surial> I'm fairly sure you did.
[04:44:11] <The_Birdman> not at all
[04:44:16] <The_Birdman> really, I mean it
[04:44:24] <surial> All I want from you is a reason, any will do, as to why you called my proposal comically overengineered. That's all.
[04:44:29] <The_Birdman> I'm not a native english speaker
[04:44:39] <The_Birdman> so my words by not be appropriate all the time
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[04:44:52] <surial> Look, if you call an idea of mine akin to writing "log 0" instead of 1, which I read as: Good lord man, that's just silly complicated, I take that as an insult.
[04:45:16] <surial> An insult of an idea, so it's not that bad on the whole, but insulting ideas without any argument is still morally iffy in my book.
[04:45:19] <The_Birdman> but really, if you feel offended, I'm sorry, but yes I was exaggerating that's all
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[04:45:32] <The_Birdman> 'that's all to it'
[04:45:38] <AMcBain> Well, if I did it over, it might be nice to have something like an annotation for the multi-event dispatching so that they can control the eventual event type/group used rather than my direct conversion to this-is-a-method-name
[04:46:02] <AMcBain> (doing it over isn't out of the question, though, I have a long way to go before the only project currently using it is done)
[04:46:22] <surial> The_Birdman: To distill it down to its bare essentials: I came up with an idea. You said the equivalent of "That's dumb" without, as far as I could tell, any reason for doing this. Perhaps I misunderstood you.
[04:46:42] <The_Birdman> well, I do not think it's dumb at all
[04:46:42] <AMcBain> surial, please! can we not escalate this?
[04:46:50] <surial> I'm de-escalating it.
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[04:47:48] <The_Birdman> because not the average people or maybe me would be able to do it, so it's not dumb and as you talk I can see that you're not average, so basically I don't think that you're stupid to get to the point
[04:47:59] <impl> you guys know that log 0 isn't 1, right?
[04:48:02] <ojacobson> Is there a problem?
[04:48:02] <AMcBain> I just asked what I thought was a simple question with a tough answer, I got a response or two, and I implied I was the wrong kind of lazy, can we just quit it now or please continue amicably?
[04:48:21] <The_Birdman> ojacobson: I said it was overcomplicated, surial took it personal
[04:48:38] <The_Birdman> going back at me, with ' arrogant asshat' , etc.
[04:48:42] <ojacobson> You have two options: you can bicker with him, or you can let it go
[04:48:53] <The_Birdman> yeah, I'll just let it go
[04:48:57] <The_Birdman> I don't mind at all
[04:49:05] <The_Birdman> we're adults :-)
[04:49:32] <impl> log 0 still isn't 1.
[04:49:42] <AMcBain> oh god :P
[04:49:44] <The_Birdman> don't get me started
[04:49:47] <The_Birdman> :-)
[04:49:53] <surial> impl: Well, touché.
[04:49:54] <The_Birdman> just for the record and I'm done
[04:49:58] <ojacobson> impl: lim (x -> 0) log x = -inf, news at eleven
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[04:50:18] <ojacobson> well, 0+
[04:50:31] <ScottishPig> lol
[04:50:38] <surial> ojacobson: I'm sure there's a unicode symbol for arrow-with-a-plus-sign-above-it.
[04:50:55] <AMcBain> tbh, I dunno what I would have come up with if I started the Simple Event Library from scratch, but we know where I ended up because of what I started with.
[04:51:06] <ojacobson> Amazingly, not that I can find.
[04:51:06] <The_Birdman> impl : from lao tseu "the words are fingers pointing at the moon; if you watch the finger you can't see the moon"
[04:51:07] <AMcBain> I'll either have to give it some real thought or let it go.
[04:51:16] <ojacobson> There's probably a +-shaped combining mark though
[04:51:26] <AMcBain> ±?
[04:51:33] <ojacobson> That's not a combining mark. :)
[04:51:42] <impl> The_Birdman: They call 'em fingers, but I've never seen 'em fing
[04:51:47] <AMcBain> ooh, now I get what you mean
[04:51:57] <The_Birdman> :-), oh god, well time to go out :-)
[04:52:00] <ojacobson> The various chinese and japanese radical characters are combining marks -- they're rendered in tandem with some other glyph, and can be stacked basically indefinitely.
[04:52:07] <surial> ojacobson: Holy crap. Same here. Can't find one. Could it be? We found a concept that has no symbol in unicode? No, no. We just suck at search. That couldn't possible be.
[04:52:24] <ojacobson> surial: No, no, it just means one of us needs to file a proposal with the unicode dudes
[04:52:34] <ojacobson> and then the other needs to file an incompatible proposal for the same glyph
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[04:52:51] <ojacobson> If we do it right they'll both get accepted :D
[04:54:13] <surial> ojacobson: I got a "combining plus sign below".
[04:54:31] <ojacobson> If they bothered to specify "below", there's got to be an "above" somewhere
[04:54:59] <surial> a?????
[04:55:05] <surial> I don't think that's coming over, is it?
[04:55:12] <ojacobson> It came over fine here.
[04:55:14] <surial> Okay, now there are 2 tiny plus symbols stuck in my IRC client.
[04:55:17] <surial> :{
[04:55:21] <ojacobson> I have my client set to treat this as UTF-8 though
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[04:55:44] <ojacobson> you probably naffed up at least a couple of people who are still using IRC-ASCII (the caps rules are different) per the original RFC, or cp1252
[04:56:09] <surial> Well, people who use cp1252 for anything deserve what they get. I hope that translates as "ding-bell-annoying".
[04:56:36] <ojacobson> ^G ^G ^G
[04:57:00] <AMcBain> I got all boxes here with utf-8 save for the "a", but when I copied it to my input line it worked, so I blame my font.
[04:57:39] <surial> lim x?0? log x = -?
[04:57:47] <surial> I say that's a fair notation.
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[04:59:56] <ojacobson> Needs line breaks
[05:00:03] <ojacobson> approach under lim, for example
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[05:00:51] <surial> I'm trying to remember who my math books write it. Didn't they superscript the "lim" above the "x" or some such?
[05:01:33] <surial> This looks about right: http://necessaryconclusions.files.wordpress.com/2008/09/1_over_x_limit.jpg
[05:01:37] <AMcBain> The lim was normal text, but x->some number was subscript
[05:01:48] <surial> If only IRC was based on LaTeX :P
[05:02:07] <surial> But he wrote +/- as post-superscript on the target :P
[05:02:29] <AMcBain> I think conveying general thoughts across ASCII is hard enough without involving LaTeX
[05:02:52] <surial> I don't think there's a unicode character for (turn font size way down, print as superscript, until the 'complete' character, then start from here but write subscript, until the second "complete" character, is there?
[05:03:02] * AMcBain note this from having (or previously having) a reputation of paragraph questions in ##swing :P
[05:03:09] * surial is waiting for someone to suggest I like APL :P
[05:03:12] <AMcBain> notes*
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[05:03:43] <AMcBain> I think I answer more questions than ask in there anymore.
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[05:04:25] <ojacobson> surial: of course, they're characters, not formatting cues.
[05:05:01] <surial> ojacobson: Well, it's unicode. What's in there surprises me. But yeah. Going beyond combining chars would be overkill.
[05:05:46] <ojacobson> combining chars are signifigantly more efficient in terms of code point utilisation than, say, a separate character for every combination of character and radicals in chinese orthography. :)
[05:06:01] <surial> It also has funny smilies! ?
[05:06:03] <ojacobson> There's a reasonably sound argument that the combining-chars approach is a hack
[05:06:10] <ojacobson> but it's a necessary one
[05:06:38] <FauxFaux> I don't understand chinese writing, but to my Europeanisms, most of the combining characters look like latin accents.
[05:06:45] <surial> Oh, yeah. But given that the hack exists, is the fact that for example é exists separately a bad design feature? Probably not, codepoint duplication is pragmatically speaking hard to avoid, and if you have duplication anyway...
[05:06:48] <ojacobson> A lot of the are similar shapes
[05:07:12] <ojacobson> Given that é and ´ both exist...
[05:07:38] <FauxFaux> é is, like, four times more efficient in utf-8?
[05:07:42] <surial> NB: Side-note to keep this on topic: java actually has a class that can compare two strings, ignoring diacriticals and depending on locale even expanding ë to "ue".
[05:07:48] <surial> er. ü to ue.
[05:07:58] <ojacobson> T????????????o?????????? ???????i??????n?????????v?????????????o?????????k???????????e????????? ????????????t?????h????????????????e??????????????
[05:07:58] <ojacobson> ????????h?????????????????i????????????????v???????????e????????-??????????????m??????????????i???????????????n??????d????????????
[05:07:59] <ojacobson> ?????????????r????????e??????p??????????????r?????????????????e????????s??????????????e?????????n?????????t??????????????????i???????????n????????g??????????
[05:07:59] <ojacobson> ????????????c????????h?????????????a??????????????o????????????s??????????.????????????
[05:07:59] <ojacobson> ?????????????t???????????h????????????????e??????????? ?????????f??????????e???????????e???l????????????i??????????????n???????????g???? ??????????????????o????????f??????????????????
[05:08:00] <ojacobson> ???????c????????????h??????????a????????????o???????s??????????.????????????
[05:08:00] <ojacobson> ???????????o??????????r????????????d???????????e?????????????r??????.??????????????
[05:08:01] <ojacobson> ????????????N??????????e???????????????z????????p?????????????e?????????r?????????d????????????i???????????a???????????????n????????????
[05:08:02] <ojacobson> ????????????h???????????i????????????v???????????????e???????-??????????m?????????????i?????????????????n?????d????? ?????????????o???????????f????????? ????????c????????????h???????????a?????????o??????????s?????????.?????????
[05:08:03] <ojacobson> ??????????????????Z????????a????????????l??????g??????????????o???????????.?????	????????????
[05:08:04] <ojacobson> ????????????W?????????????a?????????????????i??????????t???????????????s??????????????????? ?????????????????B???????e????????????h???????????i??????????????n??????????d?????????????
[05:08:06] *** ChanServ sets mode: +o pr3d4t0r
[05:08:06] <ojacobson> T????????????o?????????? ???????i??????n?????????v?????????????o?????????k???????????e????????? ????????????t?????h????????????????e??????????????
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[05:08:16] <FauxFaux> Giggles.
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[05:08:30] <FauxFaux> I hadn't seen s??u??n?? before.
[05:08:31] <surial> d'oh. That slowed down my client for a bit.
[05:08:36] <pr3d4t0r> ojacobson: Sorry mate.
[05:08:39] <ojacobson> Wow, that royally boned my client.
[05:08:40] <ojacobson> No, good call
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[05:08:51] <ojacobson> Sorry folks
[05:08:54] <surial> That was hilarious. Crazy mix of combination chars?
[05:08:55] <pr3d4t0r> ojacobson: I figured it was a trap set by surial.
[05:09:03] <ojacobson> http://www.eeemo.net/ ZALGOizer
[05:09:05] <surial> ~trap
[05:09:05] <javabot> surial, I have no idea what trap is.
[05:09:06] <pr3d4t0r> ojacobson: Akhbar was having dinner, though; couldn't warn you.
[05:09:07] <FauxFaux> Gnome terminal deals not well with that.
[05:09:47] <ojacobson> u?????????n?????????i?????????????c??????????????o???????d?????????e?????? ?????????????????c????????????o????????????m?????e?????????s??????????.???????
[05:09:53] <ojacobson> (And I'm done.)
[05:09:59] <ScottishPig> Is that some unicode?
[05:10:06] <FauxFaux> I hadn't seen the normalised comparison before, only Normalizer, Normalizer you're a Normalizer.
[05:10:08] <ojacobson> It's pretty heinous unicode abuse
[05:10:16] <surial> ScottishPig: I'm guessing fairly standard characters festooned with a _lot_ of combination marks.
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[05:10:27] <surial> I liked FauxFaux's sun.
[05:10:45] <ojacobson> surial: if you strip off the combining marks you're left with "unicode comes"
[05:11:07] <surial> oh yeah. Now I can see it plain as day
[05:11:16] <ojacobson> uh huh
[05:11:29] <surial> It's like an optical illusion.
[05:11:40] <ojacobson> Funky. There's a multiplication symbol combining above, but no plus.
[05:11:53] <ojacobson> and a plus combining below, but no times
[05:11:53] <FauxFaux> As we're talking about normalisation, a million points if you can tell me a sane way to write Normalizer.normalize(inputstring, Normalizer.Form.NFD).replaceAll("\\p{InCombiningDiacriticalMarks}+", "");
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[05:12:27] <surial> FauxFaux: Wasn't that a decently sane way?
[05:12:54] <surial> FauxFaux: Though - isn't one of normalizer's modes very aggressive and basically reduces everything down to an ascii char if possible?
[05:13:17] <surial> including é written as e + combiner-´ to just 'e' (somewhat depending on locale)?
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[05:13:40] <FauxFaux> I don't believe so, I think i tried them all.  The ultimate goal is to make mysql's string comparisons not make me angry. >.<
[05:13:46] <ojacobson> haha
[05:13:49] <ojacobson> good fucking luck, mate
[05:14:18] <ojacobson> I don't think any of mysql's collation modes are sane in the face of non-basically-english text, and combining diacriticals are pretty non-basic
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[05:14:42] <FauxFaux> Next project I'm base64ing all data before passing it to the database layer.
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[05:14:58] <impl> mysql has utf8_general_ci
[05:15:17] <ojacobson> Tell mysql to store in utf-8, send data to it in utf-8 to reduce the number of times mysql tries to transcode it for you, and give up on mysql doing useful comparisons that aren't =
[05:15:18] <FauxFaux> That's what I'm using.
[05:15:34] <FauxFaux> Even with that, = still doesn't work.
[05:15:45] <joed> Give up on mysql.
[05:15:49] <FauxFaux> Let me see if this is testcasable before people lose interest.
[05:15:50] <ojacobson> Well, that too
[05:16:01] <ojacobson> I lost interest at "mysql"
[05:16:09] <joed> It is like trying to materbate a dead female ferret
[05:16:16] * ojacobson waits for joed
[05:16:27] <joed> I'm done.
[05:16:36] <impl> have you guys used H2 or HSQLDB / are either of them worth using?
[05:16:42] <joed> Why am I opped here too?
[05:16:45] <ojacobson> I wrote a python program today that automates destroying ~180,000 tables at a time
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[05:16:57] <FauxFaux> drop user x cascade;
[05:17:04] <impl> 180,000 tables?
[05:17:06] <impl> ?_?
[05:17:21] <FauxFaux> Arrrrrrrrrrrrgh, Oracle's refusal to kick off a user, so much rage.
[05:18:00] <AMcBain> HSQLDB doesn't seem to bad, but given it's just an in memory or script file database, I wouldn't load it up with data if you intend to use the fs option
[05:18:40] <ojacobson> impl: they're not horrible. Startup on large data sets is unpleasant, and the definition of "large" is alarmingly small, thoughl
[05:18:44] <FauxFaux> I've been screwed by all these things as their date handling is odd.  Mysql, etc.
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[05:18:57] <FauxFaux> Uh.  Sqlite.  Haven't actually tried mysql.
[05:19:07] <ojacobson> sqlite doesn't actually have any date handling.
[05:19:18] <AMcBain> haha :P
[05:19:21] <surial> Does mysql support indices on functions?
[05:19:24] <ojacobson> It just pretends for you, kind of like your girlfriend. :)
[05:19:26] <ojacobson> not that I know of.
[05:19:26] <impl> ojacobson: I mostly want to use them to take bunches of data that I already have pulled and shove it in temp tables so I can do grouping and joins without having to think about how to do it myself.
[05:19:32] <FauxFaux> (Odd -> not exactly like Oracle in the hand-written-sql-processing kind of way)
[05:19:42] <impl> so nothing would be really persistent, at least not for longer than a few hours
[05:19:43] <surial> How I normally solve this in postgres is to add a stored procedure that does as best a job as possible to translate any string to something normalized, and then index on the result of this function.
[05:20:28] <surial> impl: My experiences with h2 indicate it blows derby out of the water.
[05:20:31] <ojacobson> Yeah, functional indexes are a handy tool for edge-casey data transforms.
[05:20:42] <PJMODOS> surial: not many databases support index on functions tho
[05:20:46] <surial> impl: And its syntax compatibility with postgres is fantastic _if_ you go the direct SQL route, which is not the usual strategy for java apps.
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[05:21:08] <surial> PJMODOS: I wonder why not. It's obviously a much better answer than custom collation sequences per column.
[05:21:29] <impl> surial: cool. I'll probably give it a try this weekend then and see how it goes
[05:21:42] <surial> sqlite is horrible. Never use it.
[05:21:50] <ojacobson> PJMODOS: oracle does, postgres does, firebird does, sql server does if you kick it right
[05:21:56] <ojacobson> Dunno what "not many" means to you
[05:22:07] <ojacobson> db2 probably does, it supports everything else
[05:22:27] <FauxFaux> Except query optimisation lololol.
[05:22:33] <ojacobson> haha troof
[05:22:35] <surial> ojacobson: "not many" evidently means "mysql doesn't" :P
[05:22:44] <ojacobson> surial: well I wasn't going to SAY it
[05:22:53] <surial> derby doesn't. And doesn't support collation settings, so it is impossible to do an indexed case insensitive search on Derby.
[05:23:00] <ojacobson> but sqlite, derby, hypersonic and friends, etc don't either
[05:23:06] <surial> On the plus side, when a friend of mine last laughed out loud at the author of derby about that, he did say he would fix that.
[05:23:10] <surial> So maybe you can, now.
[05:23:49] <ojacobson> So basically "tiny in-process data storage engines that use SQL don't support industrial RDBMS features"
[05:23:56] <PJMODOS> ojacobson: hmm so they all added it since last time I checked (yeah was years ago :)
[05:24:05] <ojacobson> (except mysql, which is neither tiny nor in-process but still doesn't support industrial RDBMS features)
[05:24:39] <surial> h2 does.
[05:24:48] <surial> That's relatively tiny, and certainly in-process.
[05:25:02] <ojacobson> exception, rule
[05:25:08] <surial> ojacobson: The best comment against NoSQL I ever heard? "Re-inventing MyISAM is not a selling point!"
[05:25:08] <impl> but mysql *is* easy to admin... until it breaks
[05:25:11] <ojacobson> and it's one of those observations that'll go stale relatively quickly :)
[05:25:40] <impl> this is why php and mysql go hand in hand
[05:25:42] <impl> :<<<
[05:25:53] <ojacobson> impl: my heuristic for ignoring peoples' opinions on databases is to ask them how to profile queries on MySQL
[05:25:59] <surial> ojacobson: You do mean "prove" means "test, challenge" and not "confirms", in "the exception that proves the rule", right?
[05:26:17] <surial> ojacobson: If someone doesn't laugh, they don't get hired?
[05:26:22] <ojacobson> yes, I know. I also know that informally people use it wrong, and I'm too lazy to fix the english language. :)
[05:26:37] <ojacobson> if they don't mention mk or any of the query metadata but does try to answer seriously, ++bozo;
[05:26:44] <ojacobson> (explain is not query metadata)
[05:26:49] <surial> mk?
[05:26:53] <PJMODOS> surial: not many means that mysql, mssql, db2 and firebird didn't do it last time I worked with them (but I work with postgres exclusively since like 2004 so that does not say much probably)
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[05:27:02] <ojacobson> maatkit
[05:27:05] * surial has never had to manage a high-load DB.
[05:27:10] <ojacobson> http://www.maatkit.org/doc/synopsis
[05:27:26] <ojacobson> A bunch of stuff that should've been part of mysql in the first place
[05:27:37] <joed> Like date?
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[05:28:05] <ojacobson> sadly, no engine-level stuff :)
[05:28:08] <surial> PJMODOS: Well, you nailed it. Postgres can do most everything, and it is universally applicable - it has a permissive license and it runs everywhere. Short of idiotic top brass that dropped the GDP of a small country on an oracle deployment, who cares about other Dbs? :P
[05:28:33] <ojacobson> postgres tuning is a bit of a black art even among the postgres community though
[05:28:49] <surial> So is oracle tuning though, no?
[05:28:59] <surial> Well, you can farm this out to an oracle guy I guess.
[05:29:08] <ojacobson> Aye, but less so. Oracle at least has some tuning guidelines, rather than "here are some config keys, have at"
[05:29:08] <joed> Well, you can pay for null
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[05:29:33] <PJMODOS> ojacobson: yeah, that's because important things you need to tune change with every major release
[05:29:48] <ojacobson> And when you upgrade your OS or filesystem.
[05:29:57] <joed> Hahaha
[05:29:57] <surial> On the flip side, #postgres right here on freenode is the most effective tech support channel I've ever been in, by many miles.
[05:30:09] <surial> Staffed with lots of core devvers.
[05:30:26] <ojacobson> This is not your cue to go shit up their channel, guise
[05:30:30] <PJMODOS> surial: I know, been there for years, I am nt really java person, I am postgres person :)
[05:31:26] <joed> ~database
[05:31:26] <javabot> There are many database engines for/written in Java. See database section at http://javafaq.mine.nu/ and check out http://developers.sun.com/prodtech/javadb/
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[05:31:42] <ojacobson> You know what's missing from this conversation?
[05:31:47] <robbyoconnor> me?
[05:31:49] <impl> dicks?
[05:31:52] <joed> No.
[05:31:53] <ojacobson> Someone to plug Prevayler (at one extreme) or spaces (at the other)
[05:32:03] <AMcBain> javafaq is a broken link
[05:32:06] <joed> Nah, he is alseep.
[05:32:08] <robbyoconnor> I woulda thought dicks would add stuff :)
[05:32:09] <ojacobson> haha
[05:32:26] <AMcBain> robbyoconnor, you just wanted to insert yourself into the conversation
[05:32:35] <robbyoconnor> nah somewhere else.
[05:32:40] <ojacobson> (If you use prevayler, well, your life is bad when your data set grows past RAM)
[05:32:47] <ojacobson> (so don't, ok)
[05:33:02] <joed> That said, Opennms with about 80k wireless ap's and one postgres db runs fine.
[05:33:08] <impl> is Prevayler like Terracotta?
[05:33:13] <ojacobson> No, it's stupider than that
[05:33:33] <ojacobson> It's actually got a good basic idea but the implementation is made of pure doltanium
[05:34:39] <ojacobson> You pass command objects to the persistence layer, which have side effects on the persisted data model. P. maintains the data model in RAM and only in RAM and serializes the whole thing out to disk periodically (and in from disk on startup, along with any pending command objects)
[05:34:51] <joed> blog?
[05:35:01] <ojacobson> :X, anyways
[05:35:10] <impl> interesting
[05:35:34] <ojacobson> attractive but wrong
[05:36:09] <ojacobson> either your dataset is small in which *any* persistence/storage mechanism will work just fine or it's not small in which case it'll choke trying to cram it all into RAM
[05:36:31] <ojacobson> The API contains some interesting ideas, is all
[05:36:40] <impl> aye, that makes sense
[05:36:57] * joed lulz
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[05:46:21] <joed> ojacobson: I'm right now trying to cram 12 mil events into this, no way you could be right.
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[05:46:34] <ojacobson> How big is an event?
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[05:47:36] <joed> It is a file, a normalized path, a container, its parent, the descriptor and the body
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[05:48:16] <joed> So it is is rather large
[05:48:34] <eut> hello
[05:48:49] <ojacobson> And you've got how many gigs of address space, and RAM, to throw at this? :)
[05:49:01] <ojacobson> From previous conversations I know you use big hardware.
[05:49:17] <eut> when building a java app with "ant" i'm getting some warnings that one of my sources is using a deprecated API. it recommends that i recompile with -Xlint:deprecation for further details. how can i do this with ant?
[05:49:24] <eut> sorry if this isnt the proper channel
[05:49:24] <joed> ojacobson: Oh, customer has most of the monay in the US.
[05:49:38] <joed> ojacobson: The usecase is stupid.
[05:49:39] <ojacobson> eut: check the ant docs for the javac task -- it's outlined pretty clearly there
[05:50:48] <joed> ojacobson: I already wrote the trailingMillionTask
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[05:55:00] <robbyoconnor> ant docs are pretty good mind you :)
[05:55:57] <eut> ojacobson, thanks for the pointer. i found it and got it working :D
[05:56:03] <ojacobson> eut: cheers :)
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[09:04:23] <oorza> Can I prevent the failure of Vector.iterator if I simply do: synchronized(vectorInst) { doStuffWith(vectorInst.iterator()); }
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[09:04:44] <oorza> That will lock vectorInst until doStuffWith is finished, right?
[09:04:52] <dangertools> ~~ oorza vector
[09:04:53] <javabot> oorza, You should not use Vector/Hashtable/Stack unless you need to be compatible with java 1.1 (which nobody has for at least 5 years!) OR you're using J2ME.  Instead, use ArrayList/HashMap/ArrayDeque.  If you need thread safety, use Collections.synchronized{List|Map}.  For more details, ask me about "javadoc Collections".
[09:05:15] <dangertools> oorza: "the failure" is quite unclear. what do you mean?
[09:05:48] <oorza> dangertools, they fail-fast, so the iterator blows up / nullifies if another thread comes along and pushes an element onto the vector
[09:06:59] <dangertools> yes
[09:07:35] <oorza> So why is vector a bad idea?
[09:09:18] <dtrott> oorza: Thats kinda like saying so why is an 8-track a bad idea....
[09:10:18] <dangertools> oorza: because vector is always synchronized (and that's usually just useless) and it's synchronization model is not the best, there are others doing it better (CopyOnWriteArrayList, Concurrent*, ...)
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[09:12:45] <kaushal> hi
[09:12:49] <kaushal> by any chance anyone use ant for deploying war in Tomcat ?
[09:13:03] <dtrott> ~ask
[09:13:04] <javabot> The Ask To Ask protocol wastes more bandwidth than any version of the Ask protocol, so just ask your question.
[09:13:08] <dangertools> ~~ kaushal anyone
[09:13:09] <javabot> kaushal, Chances are someone has, so why not just ask your question and save some time?  If someone knows and wants/has time to help, perhaps he/she will.
[09:13:20] <kaushal> dtrott: sure
[09:13:33] <kaushal> i have a question about ant sshexec task
[09:13:48] <kaushal> let me pastebin it
[09:14:48] <oorza> Well, dtrott / dangertools, I need a threadsafe collection of objects that I can return a random chunk of...
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[09:15:02] <oorza> So I need a dynamically expanding array :S
[09:15:18] <kaushal> http://paste.ubuntu.com/389451/
[09:15:48] <dangertools> oorza: did you read what i wrote?
[09:16:16] <oorza> dangertools, I did and I've read a fuckload of documentation and I haven't got a clue what the best datastructure for the task is!
[09:16:30] <oorza> Not in the last three minutes, but over the course of the last week.
[09:17:14] <oorza> The best I can think is ArrayList.subList(start, end).toArray() but that's seems like a square peg in a round hole.
[09:17:49] <dtrott> Collections.synchronizedList(new ArrayList());
[09:18:53] <oorza> That will synchronize traversal and access as well as mutation, won't it?
[09:19:01] <kaushal> checking in again for my query ?
[09:19:09] <oorza> I don't want to synchronize anything but mutations.
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[09:19:30] <dtrott> oorza: If yoy do it right but you will have to read up on how syncronization should be handled.
[09:20:14] <oorza> dtrott, I'm thinking syncrhonized(myList) { myList.add(ObjectHere); } would be fine, no?
[09:20:52] <dangertools> oorza: look at the java.util.concurrent package. CopyOnWriteArrayList seems to be what you are looking for
[09:21:14] <oorza> Not when I have to deal with lists with >100,000 entries it isn't :P
[09:21:48] <dangertools> it always helps to know the requirements ...
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[09:23:43] <oorza> Okay, so I have a large (figure 100,000 is upper limit, 100 is lower) list that I need to have threadsafe mutations and the ability to return n random elements from the list (a random 30-element chunk is fine) that either supports efficient contains() or is backed by a Hash so that elements stay unique.
[09:23:48] <oorza> That ought to be the full reqs :P
[09:25:45] <dangertools> is blocking execution a problem?
[09:25:50] <dtrott> oorza: Nowhere near, you haven't defined anything about how the mutations will occur, deletions, additions where will they occur ....
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[09:27:45] <oorza> dangertools, preferably as little as possible, of course, and there's a bit of a speed consideration (webservice needs to push some serious requests) and dtrott mutations are pretty equally distributed among deletions/additions and are (I haven't farmed the data yet, since this isn't finished) mutative actions are probably 10-15% of all actions, or ~75%, depending on which list you're talking about.
[09:27:59] <oorza> Anything else I left out? :S
[09:28:17] <oorza> "some serious requests" = ~2500
[09:28:19] <oorza> qps
[09:29:16] <dtrott> is it ok to copy the 30 element chunk and will any mutations occur on that 30 element chunk ?
[09:29:40] <dangertools> sounds nice ;). i'd try a normal arraylist with synchronized blocks first and see how that scales. does the size of the list change often?
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[09:30:28] <oorza> No mutations and copying is fine since it's so small and doesn't need to reflect any changes to the main list as the returned array needs to reflect a random chunk *at the time of the request*, since it'll get translated into a JSON array and fed to the client.
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[09:33:33] <oorza> I don't mean to imply that the chunk necessarily has to be an array, just some collection, translating it to JSON will be relatively trivial regardless.
[09:34:37] <oorza> dtrott, do you agree with arraylist with synchronized blocks?
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[09:35:43] <oorza> The traversal of the list that I'm doing is going to be very infrequent, merely statistics collection that will only ever get triggered manually and rarely, maybe once or twice a day, so that can block all it wants :P
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[09:36:22] <dtrott> Probably my second best choice I would still go with my first choice though and use Collections.syncronizedList,   however you will still need a synchronized block when copying the chunk
[09:36:55] <oorza> Alright, thanks for the help.
[09:36:57] <oorza> :)
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[09:42:02] <dmiles> http://libomv.pastebin.ca/1824885
[09:42:24] <dmiles> i notice it put <clinit> int he construcor .. block .. is that relally what is happening?
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[09:43:07] <dmiles> or is it just a JAD bug?
[09:43:32] <dmiles> line 156
[09:45:13] <surial> ~jad
[09:45:13] <javabot> surial, I have no idea what jad is.
[09:45:21] <surial> hmm. I forgot the name.. there's a better jad out there.
[09:45:28] <surial> The author of jad is dead. It hasn't been updated in a long long time.
[09:45:37] <dmiles> jode is pretty good
[09:45:46] <surial> dmlloyd: And where did you see <clinit>
[09:46:00] <surial> <clinit> is JVM jargon for "a class static initializer."
[09:46:21] <dmiles> yeah secretly thaey are in a  static { .. }
[09:46:24] <surial> ~decompiler
[09:46:24] <javabot> List of Java decompilers: http://www.java-decompiler.com
[09:46:43] <surial> ~jd
[09:46:43] <javabot> surial, I have no idea what jd is.
[09:46:47] <surial> What the heck?
[09:47:11] <surial> ~jd is a new java decompiler targetted at 1.5+ bytecode. Open Source. http://java.decompiler.free.fr/
[09:47:11] <javabot> OK, surial.
[09:47:13] <dmiles> DJ is pretty good. i'll give that one a try
[09:47:18] <surial> Try that.
[09:47:33] <dmiles> cool thnanks
[09:48:14] <surial> ~no, jd is a new java decompiler targetted at 1.5+ bytecode. Free only for non-commercial projects. Comes wiht eclipse plugin. http://java.decompiler.free.fr/
[09:48:15] <javabot> OK, surial.
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[09:53:10] <dmiles> here is what that one returned.. http://libomv.pastebin.ca/1824896
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[09:53:23] <dmiles> going to peek at javap to
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[09:54:27] <dmiles> i ma just worried the compiler author put the <clinit> code inside the <init>
[09:55:08] <dmiles> i talked him into using static fields .. but maybe he did those in <init>
[09:55:35] <dmiles> it works though ;)
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[10:00:59] <dmiles>  http://libomv.pastebin.ca/1824907
[10:01:43] <dmiles> am i running pastebin line 109 every "new" ?
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[10:30:41] <anli_> In itext, how do I choose the font for a ColumnText?
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[10:37:23] <oorza> Made a nice little fruedian slip: public User getUser(schlong key) {
[10:37:24] <oorza> >.>
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[11:02:07] <Lone_Rifle> are people expected to know roughly how HashMap is implemented?
[11:02:35] <Lone_Rifle> should one be penalized if one says that a HashMap is an "Array of LinkedLists" when in reality it's just an Array of Entries
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[11:06:44] <Candle> Lone_Rifle: The index of the key is related to the hashcode of the key. The behaviour on collisions may vary. (make the array bigger? create a linked list?, etc)
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[11:08:50] <Lone_Rifle> Candle, okay, so do you think it's unfair for the interviewer to penalize me for not knowing the exact implementation of the java.util HashMap?
[11:09:50] <Lone_Rifle> (evidenced from him saying "okay, so you think that retrieval is O(n)?"
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[11:11:57] <SurfMan> I think if you ask a 1000 Java coders, that half of em don't know the implementation of HashMap
[11:12:12] <SurfMan> the *exact* implementation that is
[11:12:43] <SurfMan> if an interviewer is looking for a stick to beat the dog (a Dutch saying) he can always find one...
[11:13:09] <Lone_Rifle> okay. another question then. what do you think of a person who can't tell you if you can have a static synchronized method, but can tell you that the synchronized method is sync'd on the Object containing the method?
[11:13:18] <Lone_Rifle> (sorry folks, post mortem on interview)
[11:13:51] <ztj> Lone_Rifle: it's reasonable for you to know the expected/documented complexity characteristics of all the collections classes
[11:14:19] <ztj> Lone_Rifle: you should know all about static
[11:14:22] <Lone_Rifle> so then, is it reasonable to expect a HashMap to be implemented as an List of Lists?
[11:14:49] <ztj> Lone_Rifle: sure
[11:14:51] <Lone_Rifle> meh.
[11:15:10] <Lone_Rifle> i hate telephones. he probably heard me saying that the HashMap was implemented as a LinkedList
[11:15:14] <SurfMan> I think you should take into account the junior/medior/senior position of the job
[11:15:26] <ztj> basic data structures is first year CS
[11:15:40] <Lone_Rifle> er, i'm not exactly CS.
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[11:15:48] <Lone_Rifle> and that's the problem, i guess
[11:15:48] <ztj> a list of linked lists or a list of arrays or an array of lists or whatever, it doesn't matter, it basically comes down to the same concept, a list of lists
[11:16:01] <ztj> some companies want those core topics well covered
[11:16:05] <ztj> most of the time it's not necessary
[11:16:17] <ztj> but you know, that one in 100 times that it is, it's really nice when the programmer knows what's up
[11:16:33] <Lone_Rifle> ztj, sure, but i had a quick glance through java.util and it seems that HashMap wasn't really implemented as an LoL? might be i'm not reading it well enough
[11:16:51] <Candle> Lone_Rifle: look at a hashmap in a debugger.
[11:17:04] <Lone_Rifle> i do. i guess my brain isn't switched on =(
[11:18:08] <Lone_Rifle> ztj: i'm aware that static effectively means that method is at class-level as opposed to object level. its implications didn't occur to me on synchronized except much much later
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[11:18:36] <Lone_Rifle> s/implications didn't occur to me on synchronized/implications on synchronized didn't occur to me/
[11:18:52] <ztj> Lone_Rifle: it's not something people think about too often
[11:18:56] <ztj> but it's important to know
[11:19:03] <Lone_Rifle> yea... now that i do....
[11:19:08] <ztj> concurrency is a topic at opposition with programmer's habits
[11:19:27] <ztj> it is treated like an occasional task when in reality, it's the most common source of errors in even mildly sophisticated software
[11:19:35] <Lone_Rifle> but as the interviewer, would you think "this guy is a real tool, he doesn't know if why there's no static sync, but he can tell me sync is done on the object?"
[11:19:40] <ztj> so at the very least, it's good to know about the built-in monitors and such
[11:20:03] <ztj> dunno, when I do interviews, I don't judge on single questions
[11:21:32] <Lone_Rifle> i suppose so. they will probably adjust the job role to my current role, since this is an internal transfer i'm applying for.
[11:22:14] <Lone_Rifle> still, it sucks when you are unable to answer the questions other employees at the firm give you. makes you question your value =)
[11:22:48] <ztj> just use it as a learning experience, there is nothing more you can do
[11:23:03] <Lone_Rifle> sure.
[11:23:06] <ztj> and for hashmap you might be interested to know that in the real implementation, it's actually a single array
[11:23:11] <Lone_Rifle> i realised that
[11:23:20] <Lone_Rifle> so what happens on a key collision?
[11:23:30] <ztj> but it's treated like a list of lists where both list and lists are fixed size
[11:23:45] <Lone_Rifle> you can...... ....OH.
[11:23:48] <ztj> each key finds a modulated point in the whole array
[11:24:01] <Lone_Rifle> is that why the default load factor is 0.75?
[11:24:11] <ztj> and if there is not enough space before the next point, which represents the bucket (like, the array is segmented into buckets) then the whole array is grown
[11:24:20] <ztj> that's just a reasonable default
[11:24:25] <Lone_Rifle> because if you have a load factor of 1 the HashMap will be freaking out on you?
[11:24:44] <ztj> the size of the array is the initial capacy * load factor
[11:24:54] <Lone_Rifle> yup
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[11:25:14] <ztj> so all 1 would do is make it possible, given a perfect never-collide hash set of objects (like say, integers) to have all your entries without growing
[11:25:31] <Lone_Rifle> i understand.
[11:26:04] <ztj> the only real reason to go to this length of inconvenience is that the array provides a major performance boost due to memory locality when scanning references
[11:26:18] <Lone_Rifle> yup..
[11:26:23] <ztj> and since it's rarely changed, there's no good reason NOT to do the best you can for the most common action in the algorithm...
[11:26:41] <deebo> Lone_Rifle: read a book on data structures, even if you never have to write your own, imo its one of the best things to learn about this field :P
[11:26:48] <deebo> how trees, hashmaps etc work
[11:26:55] <ztj> but if you were just doing a one-off HashMap, there's no special reason you could not just do an ArrayList<LinkedList> *shrug*
[11:27:02] <ztj> yeah
[11:27:09] <ztj> everything in software is data structures
[11:27:10] <ztj> even the code
[11:27:15] <Lone_Rifle> deebo, and i ccompletely agree with you, except that i have gotten complacent after the 1st year data structures course taught at EE
[11:27:23] <Candle> In fact, write your own, and see how they compare to the java.util stuff :)
[11:27:28] <Lone_Rifle> and my copy of Programming Pearls is gathering dust
[11:27:55] <SurfMan> shameless book plug: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Data-Structures-Algorithms-Michael-Goodrich/dp/0471738840/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1267871445&sr=8-1
[11:28:10] <Lone_Rifle> that's your book?
[11:28:22] <SurfMan> nope ofcourse not
[11:28:30] <SurfMan> but I love it
[11:28:32] <Lone_Rifle> oh.
[11:28:45] <Lone_Rifle> meh, it's hard to tell. freenode is sprawling with big names sometimes.
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[11:31:04] <snow_usa> hi pr3d4t0r
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[11:32:07] <snow_usa> pr3d4t0r, sleeping ?
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[12:45:08] <jottinger> morning
[12:45:16] <Lone_Rifle> morn
[12:45:17] <ztj> yo
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[12:49:38] <jottinger> so the hibernate vs. gigaspaces test revision goes on
[12:49:48] <Lone_Rifle> gigaspaces?
[12:49:58] <jottinger> yeah, it's a javaspaces impl
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[12:50:29] <jottinger> I'm adding datastores as I get time, but right this second I'm getting the skew of the tests down
[12:50:49] <Lone_Rifle> didn't realise that hibernate implements javaspaces...
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[12:51:20] <jottinger> it doesn't
[12:52:04] <Lone_Rifle> i'm confused. what are you currently trying to do? (tm)
[12:52:05] <jottinger> if gigaspaces is a javaspaces impl, there's no logical implication that hibernate is too
[12:52:26] <jottinger> I'm testing speed of similar operations against different datastore implementations
[12:52:36] <Lone_Rifle> ah okay.....
[12:52:38] <jottinger> i.e., read, write, delete
[12:53:10] <Lone_Rifle> just testing or are you considering one or the other for your application?
[12:53:20] <Lone_Rifle> if the latter, i guess cost is not going to be a factor in your consideration?
[12:53:59] <jottinger> I don't give a rat's ass about cost, and I'm mostly trying to consider speed of actual operations
[12:54:36] <Lone_Rifle> doing a writeup?
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[12:56:47] <jottinger> yes
[12:56:57] <jottinger> first rev is already up at http://enigmastation.com
[12:57:12] <jottinger> the next rev will be significantly better, though
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[13:05:47] <snow_usa> pr3d4t0r,
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[13:08:34] <deebo> arf, anyone used xstream? i cant seem to find a .next() method to move to the next sibling in their HierarchicalStreamReader interface
[13:08:44] <deebo> so theres no way to move to the next element
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[13:10:39] <jottinger> deebo: are you writing a converter?
[13:10:49] <deebo> yeah, trying to unmarshal some flat xml
[13:11:02] <deebo> its nothing but loads and loads of siblings
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[13:13:58] <jottinger> deebo: while(reader.hasMoreChildren()) { reader.moveDown(); ... reader.moveUp(); }
[13:14:10] <jottinger> from the parent nodfe
[13:14:12] <jottinger> node, rather
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[13:17:12] <deebo> yeah figured that just now, thats kinda awkward tho
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[13:18:35] <jottinger> *shrug* it's actually elegant when you're working with normative xstream usage
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[13:27:45] <nhak> what is the function to get the value of a attribute in XML?
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[13:29:22] <jottinger> nhak: depends on the API you're using
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[13:31:06] <nhak> jottinger, i use "import org.xml.sax.*"
[13:31:37] <jottinger> so in SAX you don't "get attributes," you handle events that map to attributes
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[13:35:03] <nhak> :/ how can i handle evnts that map to attributes ?
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[13:36:47] * jottinger sighs
[13:37:06] <Candle> Good afternoon jottinger!
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[13:37:47] <Lone_Rifle> jottinger, tell me you're not the counterpart to PoppaVic in ##c =)
[13:37:55] <jottinger> look at startElement() -- and I was apparently wrong, you get an Attributes object, which is basically a map of indexed attributes
[13:38:03] <jottinger> Lone_Rifle: I have no idea who that is.
[13:38:25] <Lone_Rifle> eccentric grumpy Vietnam War veteran
[13:39:03] <jottinger> I am not eccentric, nor grumpy, nor am I a veteran
[13:39:39] <Lone_Rifle> okay. you sighed though, so maybe i'm jumping to conclusions too quickly
[13:40:04] <jottinger> I don't have a high tolerance for non-self-starters
[13:41:40] <Lone_Rifle> he might be asking you for information while trying to look it up himself in the hopes that you would be quicker
[13:41:49] <jottinger> sure, he might
[13:42:01] <Lone_Rifle> i've seen people learn quite quickly by using this method to devastating effect
[13:42:04] <jottinger> but does that lower my annoyance at being treated like a mere desk reference?
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[13:42:42] <Lone_Rifle> what are friends for ;)
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[13:42:55] <jottinger> lots of things. But are you my friends?
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[13:43:14] <Lone_Rifle> well some say that on the internet everybody is a friend
[13:43:20] <Lone_Rifle> but that's very dangerous territory to veer into
[13:44:09] <jottinger> I don't see you retards as friends. Acquaintances at best. No offense.
[13:44:56] <aTypical> Lone_Rifle, don't you love the "retards" reference followed by "No offense?"  :-)
[13:47:01] <jottinger> look, you want me to be nice, send me money. He's the one who made the (slight) reference to everyone being friends. If you can't take such a jibe from a friend, you need help.
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[13:48:02] <aTypical> Just commenting... Not attacking.  As to my needing help, it's nothing that 20 years of counseling and lots of medication can't fix.
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[13:48:36] <jottinger> mmm, medication
[13:49:00] * jottinger slaps on "Wearing and Tearing"
[13:50:10] <aTypical> As much as I don't like Microsoft, the Courier device looks really nice.
[13:50:26] <aTypical> It's a better iPad.
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[13:53:17] <jottinger> I find myself not caring about either courier OR ipad
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[13:54:28] <dcnstrct> does anyone here have any experience with substance 6 for swing ?  All I want to know is if it will run on older JVMs or not.
[13:54:49] <dcnstrct> I can't find anywhere on their website where it says a certain JRE is required.
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[13:55:14] <surial> Wahoo! green lights. That's been a while.
[13:55:38] <dcnstrct> testing is for girls. ;p
[13:55:54] <surial> Yes, testing is for sissies who have no faith in their skills, true.
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[13:56:02] <surial> But this is bordering on the rocket science, and my faith wavered.
[13:56:22] <surial> dcnstrct: Don't you have a stack of old and dusty VMs to test this on?
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[13:56:45] <dcnstrct> well I'm looking for that vmware image right now actually
[13:56:57] <dcnstrct> will have my answer in 5 minutes..
[13:57:01] <surial> aTypical: The problem with the courier? It'll never be made. Microsoft has been dancing around with wondrous UI ideas in fantastic new form factors for years and years and they haven't made shit. All they end up doing is make some videos and give a presentation at TED.
[13:57:18] <aTypical> heh
[13:57:24] <aTypical> surial, sounds like Microsoft.
[13:57:54] <surial> aTypical: The reason for this, disgruntled ex-microsofties say, is the corporate structure. Windows and Office have so much power they'll undermine any team that goes from research to production, so this stuff goes nowhere. For example, the office team did not want to make a special version for tablets. Which killed them dead.
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[13:58:39] <surial> In that office on e.g. that giant table device they made just sucked absolute ass and didn't have even one tweak in it to adjust to the new interface concept. Which, you know, doesn't even take _that_ much effort. But, back to the topic at hand: Java! wheeee!
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[13:58:59] <Lone_Rifle> well, Microsoft likes a desktop-centric environment..
[13:59:00] <aTypical> :-)
[13:59:12] <surial> Lone_Rifle: No, they don't. It's mismanagement.
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[13:59:46] <Lone_Rifle> i dunno, when the industry had this whole thing with NCs, I thought Gates said...
[13:59:55] <surial> Lone_Rifle: Ballmer and their ilk has been championing tablets and the like for years. The only possible explanation I have for Office not releasing *any* special version for tablety things, even lip service, tells me that Ballmer cannot control the head of the office BU.
[14:00:19] <surial> Gates hasn't really been running the show for nearing a decade at this point.
[14:00:37] <Lone_Rifle> sure, Gates said what he said about 15 years ago
[14:00:38] <Evet> jsp's purpose is talk with backend java app, right?
[14:00:44] <Lone_Rifle> the NC thing was about 15 years ago too.
[14:00:50] <Lone_Rifle> anyway, yea, back on topic.
[14:00:59] <surial> You're right in that Microsoft has at least until recently chased down a strategy where everything is to be made on their platform, on their terms, with their tech. And it's worked well for them until the web came along, but that, too, is 6-year old news.
[14:01:22] <surial> Evet: JSP's only purpose to avoid excessive backslashes.
[14:02:35] <Evet> surial: dont people use jsp frontend <-> java backend?
[14:02:51] <Lone_Rifle> Evet, afaict, that's what surial meant
[14:02:52] <dcnstrct> damnit! substance needs Java 6.0 to run.
[14:02:52] <surial> That's one mostly misleading description.
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[14:03:17] <Lone_Rifle> surial, explain?
[14:03:22] <surial> Evet: JSPs get translated to plain java files. They are an extremely light paintjob over standard java syntax, primarily to avoid a lot of string literals in a java source file, which... would require a lot of backslashes in it.
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[14:03:34] <surial> So, in other words, what you said is: Don't people use java frontend <-> java backend.
[14:03:47] <surial> Well, uh, sure, many apps use java in both layers.
[14:04:37] <surial> The primary point, perhaps, is that as a templating language they are overengineered and generally deemed crappy. I confess I have this opinion not by direct personal experience, but by a casual glance at the spec, and opinions of others in this channel.
[14:04:46] <Lone_Rifle> you can't inject JSPs =(
[14:05:00] <Lone_Rifle> with beans
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[14:06:20] <jottinger> wait, what?
[14:06:34] <Evet> then, what is the most common frontend way to backend java app?
[14:06:49] <Lone_Rifle> unless i'm mistaken, you can't inject JSPs with beans in Spring
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[14:07:13] <jottinger> Lone_Rifle: right, because spring isn't managing the JSP instance
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[14:07:29] <jottinger> Evet: *shrug* probably PHP
[14:08:15] <Lone_Rifle> you could possibly get away with HTML, so long as there is some form of HTTP communication
[14:08:30] <Lone_Rifle> s/HTTP/Ajax/ or whatever
[14:08:43] <jottinger> sure, there are some very good Java frontends
[14:09:00] <surial> Evet: Many ways. I believe the question you wish to ask is: Which template system is good?
[14:09:06] <surial> ~template
[14:09:06] <javabot> surial, I have no idea what template is.
[14:09:09] <surial> ~templating
[14:09:09] <javabot> surial, I have no idea what templating is.
[14:09:12] <surial> d'oh.
[14:09:13] <Lone_Rifle> =o
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[14:09:35] <dcnstrct> I love the approach to web programming on the JVM that you get with clojure / compojure.  It has a nice domain specific language for expressing markup baked into the language.  compojure -> war file -> glassfish -> pwnage.  look how easy it is.. no template system needed.. no string manipulation.. http://paste.lisp.org/display/96007 ... and it all gets compiled down to lightning fast servlets =]
[14:09:39] <Lone_Rifle> oh wait. i misheard, and misthought.
[14:09:51] <Evet> ~framework
[14:09:53] <javabot> Evet, framework is http://java-source.net/open-source/web-frameworks
[14:10:07] <surial> Well, that looks like a big mistake.
[14:10:16] <surial> HTML is to be written in HTML. Not in DSL flavour of the day.
[14:10:27] <dcnstrct> why ?
[14:10:38] <surial> That's one of the problems of scala and clojure. They are so in love with themselves and their DSL-ish syntax they apply it everywhere. Generally a good thing, but you can overdo it.
[14:11:15] <surial> dcnstrct: Because HTML is the lingua franca. Everyone understands HTML. Only 1 in a million people who understand HTML understand clojure. They can maybe read this and get a feel for it, but really write it? No. Even more importantly, tools of all trades and variants do not understand this at all.
[14:11:21] <dcnstrct> when you have the ability to make these awesome DSLs why not use them for everything ?  In java you can't do it because you can't manipulate the language constructs... so what do we have in java to make up for it ? XML files
[14:11:30] <Evet> surial: which template system is good in your opinion?
[14:11:32] <surial> Even clojure tools don't, they just treat this as vanilla clojure with no idea that for example h1 cannot contain block elements.
[14:11:33] <dcnstrct> java uses XML as a domain specific language *everywhere*
[14:11:38] <dcnstrct> and it's sickening
[14:11:38] <dcnstrct> hehe
[14:12:01] <surial> Evet: Well, therein lies a bit of a problem. I handrolled my own I'm only 80% happy with. This was as a proof of concept for a nifty idea, not so much to reinvent the wheel, but it was there.
[14:12:03] <dcnstrct> you're right using new languages in not good froma  maintainability perspective
[14:12:19] <surial> Evet: Due to lack of documentation I wouldn't recommend it, so, in other words, I have no recommendation for you.
[14:12:32] <surial> dcnstrct: Not really.
[14:12:55] <surial> dcnstrct: The vast majority of popular erstwhile XML based frameworks have retooled to either annotations or embedding.
[14:12:57] <Lone_Rifle> dcnstrct, i can attest to that. Boss advocated use of ExtJS to front our Java Jax-RS app
[14:13:12] <Lone_Rifle> just 'cause.
[14:13:29] <surial> dcnstrct: The big sticklers so far are ant, but that's not really XML, just an utterly fucked up crap language, and maven, but maven sucks ass in general. Other works in the built tool space such as gradle have dumped XML by the wayside.
[14:13:39] <Lone_Rifle> and we struggled to maintain the UI as a result.
[14:13:49] <surial> Lone_Rifle, Evet: THere's a difference, of course, between something like ExtJS and a templating language. Totally different things.
[14:13:51] <Lone_Rifle> if he had used Flex, which is kinder towards developers, we might have better mielage
[14:14:10] <surial> For interaction and javascript, I suggest plain jane HTML + jQuery + jQueryTools + giving the finger to IE6 users.
[14:14:10] <Lone_Rifle> surial, sure. i guess i'm taking the general concept of going for whatever is flavour of the month
[14:14:26] <surial> But unless you want to AJAX in all dynamic data, you'll need a templating language to fill in the dynamic fields.
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[14:15:47] <Lone_Rifle> it's funny how you put IE6 down while commenting =)
[14:16:12] <Evet> surial: what about webserver <-fastcgi-> java?
[14:16:37] <surial> I _DO_ know what I'd look for in a templating language: 1) Not trying to reinvent the wheel. If it has a way to lowercase incoming text, dump it. You don't code in a template language, you code in java. Exception: You can apply a well-known scripting language to anything. That would be fantastic. 2) Easy to test by letting you supply dummy data in text files (alternative: You can hand-roll something that applies JSON data in a heartbeat).
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[14:17:55] <surial> Evet: That sounds retarded.
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[14:18:09] <surial> Evet: It also sounds like an utterly irrelevant implementation detail.
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[14:19:08] <surial> Evet: The obvious way to deploy anything is to let it run its own webserver. In java, probably jetty with servlets behind it. Then use apache's reverse proxy module and firewall the java server. Voila. This strategy works for absolutely any web framework you'd care to throw at it, and isn't dependent on apache either, as long as something supports rproxying.
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[14:20:21] <dcnstrct> asproxy works pretty good for that instead of apache.. and it's all java
[14:20:31] <dcnstrct> easier to setup
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[14:21:03] <Odyss3us> http://jasonlind.wordpress.com/ <--thank you
[14:21:10] <surial> Never heard of it, but proves the point, doesn't it? You found something better and easier, and if you have a setup like I explained you can wipe apache, install asproxy, and keep on trucking, inside of 5 minutes.
[14:21:17] <Evet> surial: so i should emdeb web service into my java app, and proxy pass to it?
[14:21:20] <Odyss3us> wheres predator?
[14:21:29] <surial> dcnstrct: I'll check it out, by the way.
[14:21:30] <Lone_Rifle> why does everybody want to look for predator?
[14:21:43] <Odyss3us> hey man: thank you for taking the time to teach me what you could about Java
[14:21:44] <surial> Odyss3us: What am I looking at?
[14:21:52] <Odyss3us> P=NP. Q.E.D.
[14:22:02] <Odyss3us> that order is chaos, and chaos is order
[14:22:15] <Odyss3us> look up P = NP on wikipedia
[14:22:32] <surial> Evet: Well, you can. Or you just package as servlet (as a war file), and run jetty directly with your project's war file. Whatever works for you, it depends a bit on how much fiddling you need to do with jetty and how much fancy URL parsing you need.
[14:22:55] <surial> Odyss3us: What are you talking about?
[14:23:01] <surial> Odyss3us: P=NP has not been proven.
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[14:23:53] <surial> Odyss3us: This is the biggest load of crap I've ever read.
[14:24:20] <Lone_Rifle> he's probably high and can be safely ignored surial
[14:24:51] <surial> Lone_Rifle: This is pretty crazy even if you're high.
[14:25:13] <Lone_Rifle> he's probably just saying that he's finally understood java and it no longer looks as random as he thought it was
[14:26:46] <dinesh___> err, it looks like a fan of n3mbers blog post ;)
[14:27:14] <elven> OSGi question: Are there any good persistence bundles available, maybe via hibernate and the usual javax.persistence annotations? Something rather simple will suffice
[14:27:19] <dcnstrct> surial, sorry dude I misspoke.. the software is HAproxy  http://haproxy.1wt.eu/
[14:27:41] <dcnstrct> newayz.. gotta run people. thanx
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[14:30:46] <jottinger> elven: too many variables there
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[14:31:23] <elven> jottinger: pardon?
[14:31:34] <jottinger> "i want a good persistence bundle" is kinda generic
[14:32:03] <SeriousWorm> is there a site/page/paper summarizing the sun JRE 6 switches I can tune to get best possible runtime performance at the expense of everything else?
[14:32:05] <elven> Fair enough. I googled around a bit, and what I basically want is to have a ORM system for bundles
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[14:32:17] <elven> It should persist to postgres if possible
[14:33:01] <surial> ~tooldocs
[14:33:02] <javabot> surial, tooldocs is http://java.sun.com/javase/6/docs/technotes/tools/index.html
[14:33:13] <surial> SeriousWorm: Should be in there if it exists at all.
[14:33:23] <SeriousWorm> surial thanks
[14:33:34] <Evet> surial: i have been using php for years. each php page was a script. so im really new to front-end app - back-end app seperation. what is the most common java architecture for web2.0? i just need some keywords to research
[14:33:51] <surial> Ah, I see.
[14:34:17] <surial> Well, writing webapps covers a wide range of mostly separate concepts, and in java, it is fairly standard to split stuff up.
[14:34:30] <surial> Most webapps need database stuff, so you use JPA.
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[14:35:18] <surial> You generally need templating of some sort. So you use {some templating language}. To go from URL to code, you can use WARs for that.
[14:35:30] <surial> Some others like all this provided by a single source, which is more the rails route.
[14:35:31] <surial> ~framework
[14:35:31] <javabot> surial, framework is http://java-source.net/open-source/web-frameworks
[14:35:36] <surial> ~web frameworks
[14:35:36] <javabot> Nowadays the popular choices are JSF, Struts, Webwork, Tapestry, Stripes, Wicket, Spring MVC, Grails, Play and RIFE. See http://static.raibledesigns.com/repository/presentations/JavaWebFrameworkSweetSpots.pdf for short introductions to each. Also see http://java-source.net/open-source/web-frameworks for an exhaustive list - or just ask me about a specific one.
[14:35:49] <surial> Those run the gamut. Play is easiest to get into.
[14:36:20] <surial> You might want to start there if you come from a PHP background. It should feel a little bit familiar if you've been using Symphony on PHP. And if you haven't, for god's sake, forget everything you learned. The basic PHP model is completely fucked up.
[14:37:43] <Odyss3us> pred: whitelist me when you have a chance please
[14:38:05] <surial> SeriousWorm: Have you looked at this: http://java.sun.com/javase/technologies/hotspot/vmoptions.jsp
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[14:38:47] <SeriousWorm> surial: yes, and also the VM GC tuning page, the one that has like 100 pages of VM GC optimization stuff
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[14:39:46] <Lone_Rifle> ugh. GC.
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[14:40:03] <Lone_Rifle> i got caught when i was asked if the GC algo can be changed
[14:40:10] <SeriousWorm> well, it can
[14:40:36] <SeriousWorm> here is the page: http://java.sun.com/javase/technologies/hotspot/gc/gc_tuning_6.html
[14:40:37] <SeriousWorm> :)
[14:40:52] <SeriousWorm> my hair started falling out when i was halfway through
[14:42:21] <Lone_Rifle> just spotted. sigh.
[14:43:16] <surial> SeriousWorm: Here's a big list: http://www.docstoc.com/docs/11550482/A-Collection-of-JVM-Options But it's from 2005.
[14:43:41] <SeriousWorm> right, thanks
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[14:45:21] <Lone_Rifle> i guess JVM tuning is meant to be common knowledge even for juniors?
[14:45:44] <SeriousWorm> imho no, unless you are running enterprise level stuff :)
[14:45:56] <SeriousWorm> and your servers are at >90% load
[14:46:19] <SeriousWorm> or ram usage, or whatever. or whatnot
[14:46:37] <jottinger> yeah, the jvm is remarkably resilient under normal circumstances
[14:46:51] <SeriousWorm> just put in the -server option and you get 30% better runtime performance. :)
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[14:47:25] <SeriousWorm> it defaults to -server on "server" machines though (the definition of which is probably anything not win32).
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[14:47:35] <Lone_Rifle> i don't work in a normal work env =(
[14:48:00] <jottinger> SeriousWorm: what kind of issues are you having?
[14:48:11] <SeriousWorm> jottinger: none. just benchmarking. :)
[14:48:33] <surial> SeriousWorm: I get mixed on mac os x.
[14:48:37] <jottinger> ugh
[14:48:48] <jottinger> SeriousWorm: well, remember that benchmarking is generally rubbish
[14:48:54] <SeriousWorm> don't worry :)
[14:49:57] <jottinger> I'm working on a benchmark myself that is also pretty much rubbish, so it's not like I'm unaware :)
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[14:50:06] <SeriousWorm> :)
[14:50:24] <Lone_Rifle> you're building a be..... the article you talked about just now?
[14:50:57] <jottinger> yeah
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[14:53:00] <jottinger> It's not ENTIRELY rubbish, it generates data to consider, but it's... looking at a very thin slice of requirements
[14:53:10] <jottinger> like most benchmarks do. That's what makes them rubbish.
[14:53:25] <Lone_Rifle> well, if people only have a thin slice of requirements...
[14:53:46] <jottinger> Lone_Rifle: sure. For MY requirements, my benchmark is very relevant.
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[14:55:12] <dinesh___> omg i just posted a question on stackoverflow.com
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[14:55:18] <dinesh___> and it's already indexed in google
[14:55:23] <dinesh___> with "2 minutes ago"
[14:55:23] <jottinger> and it's very instructive, too, but if you take the results as being generic... you're a moron
[14:55:25] <dinesh___> that's super fast
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[14:55:48] <Lone_Rifle> but surely, genericism isn't as important as relevance?
[14:56:23] <jottinger> it isn't. but "relevance" is so determined by specific requirements that benchmakrs have a very hard time being valid on the surface.
[14:56:35] <jottinger> For example, I'm testing two nosql implementations against hibernate.
[14:57:13] <jottinger> But... if the requirement includes certain types of reporting, my tests are wrong because the winners (in terms of speed) are incorrect.
[14:57:29] <jottinger> Also, CPU usage factors in, which I'm not tracking (although i would like to; may add that.)(
[14:58:31] <Evet> surial: thanks, that helped me. additionally i downloaded netbeans
[14:59:03] <Evet> there is JavaSE JavaFX JavaEE JavaME
[14:59:14] <Evet> JavaEE is the what i need as backend, right?
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[14:59:34] <jottinger> Evet: probably
[14:59:39] <jottinger> it's the "enterprise stuff"
[15:01:38] <Evet> jottinger: do people need to pay for something to use this enterprise stuff?
[15:01:48] <Evet> like "free pizza, cola is $50"
[15:02:34] <jottinger> depends
[15:02:41] <jottinger> there are commercial implementations of servers
[15:02:53] <jottinger> but the APIs are free, and there are free implementations of servers as well
[15:03:17] <waz> paypal $49 to jottinger and you're all set
[15:03:22] <jottinger> only $49?
[15:03:24] <jottinger> darn
[15:03:50] <waz> or go the oracle route and pay their tax $4,900
[15:03:59] <jottinger> only $4900? :)
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[15:04:08] <jottinger> WebLogic base point was $20K
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[15:04:23] <Lone_Rifle> or get Richard Stallman on the case
[15:05:37] <waz> in between toe jam meals
[15:05:59] <Evet> jottinger: $25K/core
[15:05:59] <Lone_Rifle> ugh. you win.
[15:06:30] <jottinger> Evet: for which?
[15:06:38] <Evet> jottinger: weblogic
[15:06:59] <jottinger> and oc4j?
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[15:08:15] <Evet> included, i think
[15:08:27] <jottinger> included in weblogic, or... the same pricing?
[15:09:36] <nomemory> is the netbeans download site working ? (i've tries 10 seconds and an error appears)
[15:09:50] <jottinger> nomemory: I dunno, if it's not working for you it's not working for you
[15:10:07] <jottinger> who knows, oracle might be thinking netbeans is cutting into their jdev userbase, all four users
[15:10:23] <Evet> nomemory: i downloaded half an hour ago
[15:10:33] <nomemory> jottinger oracle is planning to continue netbeans
[15:10:48] <Lone_Rifle> especially given that IntelliJ is now free
[15:11:09] <jottinger> nomemory: that doesn't mean anything
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[15:12:16] <nomemory> Lone_Rifle about intellij :), i work for oracle, and 4/10 my colleagues are using IntelliJ, not Jdev :)
[15:12:48] <waz> ~eclipse--
[15:12:49] <javabot> eclipse has a karma level of -164, waz
[15:13:24] <SeriousWorm> ~eclipse++
[15:13:25] <javabot> eclipse has a karma level of -163, SeriousWorm
[15:13:35] <tazle> ~karma jdev
[15:13:36] <javabot> jdev has a karma level of -1, tazle
[15:13:49] * tazle thinks that can't be right
[15:13:52] <Evet> ~gwt
[15:13:53] <javabot> Evet, gwt is Google Web Toolkit, which converts Java to JavaScript. http://code.google.com/webtoolkit/
[15:13:55] <tazle> or perhaps it's just so indifferent?
[15:14:04] <selckin> can't get bad karma if nboody uses it
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[15:15:32] <jottinger> ~karma jdeveloper
[15:15:32] <javabot> jdeveloper has a karma level of -5, jottinger
[15:15:49] <jottinger> and apparently all four users hated it, with one hating it twice as much
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[15:16:22] <jottinger> I had a long meeting with bill roth about jdeveloper, was instructive
[15:16:30] <jottinger> waz: was at shapiro's downtown :)
[15:16:34] <jottinger> (the meeting was)
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[15:28:16] <surial> ~eclipse++
[15:28:16] <javabot> eclipse has a karma level of -162, surial
[15:28:33] <anders^> ~eclipse++
[15:28:34] <javabot> eclipse has a karma level of -161, anders^
[15:28:40] <anders^> soon back to zero
[15:28:41] <anders^> soon.
[15:28:48] <surial> Muhahahahahahaha!
[15:28:51] <anders^> ~thisisatest++
[15:28:51] <javabot> thisisatest has a karma level of 1, anders^
[15:28:58] <anders^> oh i see.
[15:29:11] <Candle> ~thisisatest--
[15:29:12] <javabot> thisisatest has a karma level of 0, Candle
[15:29:28] <Lone_Rifle> eclipse is.......... okay, imo.
[15:29:32] <Lone_Rifle> ~netbeans
[15:29:32] <javabot> Lone_Rifle, netbeans is Sun's standard Java IDE.  See http://netbeans.info and/or download this http://is.gd/5nd3P (DZone RefCard).  NetBeans now sucks less than Eclipse.  Really.
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[15:29:41] <Candle> ~netbeans++
[15:29:41] <javabot> netbeans has a karma level of 20, Candle
[15:30:36] <anders^> ~surial++
[15:30:36] <javabot> surial has a karma level of 114, anders^
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[15:33:23] * Lone_Rifle thinks.......
[15:33:28] <Lone_Rifle> ~C++
[15:33:28] <javabot> c has a karma level of 28, Lone_Rifle
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[15:40:33] <SeriousWorm> ~surial++
[15:40:33] <javabot> surial has a karma level of 115, SeriousWorm
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[15:44:27] <Ki0wa> how can I get the title of a web page?
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[15:48:15] <nomemory> Ki0wa the interesting way: http://onjava.com/pub/a/onjava/2003/04/23/java_webserver.htmlhttp://onjava.com/pub/a/onjava/2003/04/23/java_webserver.html
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[15:50:03] <Ki0wa> nomemory: thanks but... 404 Not Found
[15:50:22] <Ki0wa> ah, are 2 links
[15:50:24] <Ki0wa> ok
[15:51:31] <surial> ~info netbeans
[15:51:31] <javabot> netbeans was added by: pr3d4t0r on 12-14-2009 at 11:43 AM, EST and has a literal value of: Sun's standard Java IDE.  See http://netbeans.info and/or download this http://is.gd/5nd3P (DZone RefCard).  NetBeans now sucks less than Eclipse.  Really.
[15:51:37] <surial> ~pr3d4t0r--
[15:51:37] <javabot> pr3d4t0r has a karma level of 650, surial
[15:52:19] <nomemory> Ki0wa the idea is to open a socket, ask for the webpage, wait for <title> to show up.
[15:52:29] <surial> ~no, netbeans is Oracle's standard Java IDE not aimed at the enterprise and considered one of the 'big 3' IDEs.  See http://netbeans.info and/or download this http://is.gd/5nd3P (DZone RefCard).  Also ask me about ~ide for alternatives.
[15:52:29] <javabot> OK, surial.
[15:53:05] <SeriousWorm> ~ide
[15:53:05] <javabot> SeriousWorm, ide is Integrated Development Environment, see IDEA, Eclipse or Netbeans.  You don't *need* an IDE to use Java, but it helps.  Everyone and their brother has an opinion on which is best, but please try them all out and decide for yourself.
[15:55:06] <srm> ~interpreter
[15:55:06] <javabot> srm, I have no idea what interpreter is.
[15:55:08] <Ki0wa> nomemory: can you show me an example?
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[15:55:48] <LordDoskias> can someone please take a look at : http://privatepaste.com/21a2a04199 and tell me their opinion as to why the code terminates automatically after it has finihed playing a file
[15:55:59] <LordDoskias> and why this code: http://privatepaste.com/d543d03d8d - doesn't
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[15:59:54] <waz> you have an audio thread that isn't exiting
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[16:01:12] <LordDoskias> waz: you mean i should do Thread.getcurrentthread().exit();?
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[16:01:51] <waz> no
[16:02:03] <waz> wrong thread
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[16:02:15] <waz> it's the audio thread that start fired off
[16:02:37] <LordDoskias> so i should take a list of the available threads, find it, kill it ?
[16:03:22] <waz> does start return a ref to the thread?
[16:03:49] <LordDoskias> no
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[16:06:50] <LordDoskias> the first code exists but it closes whatever application it is running from
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[16:09:41] <waz> what does it return?
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[16:10:44] <LordDoskias> void start()
[16:10:57] <LordDoskias> this method is inherrited from DataLine
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[16:12:42] <pr3d4t0r> waz, LordDoskias: Erm... sorry to interrupt... I don't think LordDoskias here should do an exit() call at all.  If he's got one then he'll exit the JVM every time, regardless of which thread calls it.
[16:12:56] <waz> I don't either :)
[16:13:17] <pr3d4t0r> waz: Yeah, I figured.
[16:13:30] <LordDoskias> then what am I supposed to do
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[16:14:09] <pr3d4t0r> LordDoskias: Have your thread check for a flag that you can set asynchronously.
[16:14:22] <pr3d4t0r> LordDoskias: If that flag is true, end your thread.
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[16:17:31] <LordDoskias> how do I end the thread - via return ? 'cause java's site says not to use thread.stop
[16:17:50] <Candle> LordDoskias: 'return' is acceptable.
[16:18:08] <waz> LordDoskias: read this: http://www.jsresources.org/faq_misc.html
[16:18:08] <Candle> You want to release locks and fall off the bottom of the run() method.
[16:18:13] <waz> the answer lies within
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[16:30:10] <thesnark> Hello. If I have a thread that blocks when I call a certain objects constructor, I need to make that class Runnable, correct?
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[16:30:54] <jottinger> no
[16:31:03] <jottinger> You need to figure out why it blocks
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[16:31:44] <thesnark> jottinger ok, and how would I figure out why it blocks?
[16:31:48] <thesnark> I mean in general
[16:32:02] <jottinger> by debugging
[16:32:32] <thesnark> right, got it. Thanks :)
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[16:42:53] <LordDoskias> it's me again - i did it the way you recommended i check for a certain event and return but my application still hangs
[16:43:06] <LordDoskias> and i'm sure the thread i'm returning from is Java sound dispatcher
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[16:52:10] <LordDoskias> after i have stopped a thread isn't the program supposed to return to the main or previous thread?
[16:52:56] <blbrown_win> LordDoskias, what are you seeing?
[16:53:29] <LordDoskias> my program just hangs
[16:53:46] <blbrown_win> LordDoskias, in your main program, do you have an infinite loop?
[16:53:47] <LordDoskias> i have a swing program and when i click a jlabel i want it to play sound - which it does fine
[16:53:54] <LordDoskias> then i want to return to the execution of the program
[16:53:54] <dinosaurvskitten> any recommendations for a good library that would take care of most of the work involved in creating a shell-like application? I basically want not to have to do anything other than receive the string to parse once the user presses enter...
[16:54:11] <LordDoskias> blbrown_win: nope
[16:54:25] <LordDoskias> but i'm using swing so i guess there is some internal infinite loop?
[16:54:27] <dinosaurvskitten> (I just need really basic features like history and cursor support for line edition)
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[17:05:28] <LordDoskias> blbrown_win: any ideas?
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[17:08:12] <reverend> LordDoskias: are you using SwingUtilities to spawn your threads?
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[17:11:22] <dangertools> reverend: how do you spawn threads with SwingUtilities?
[17:12:10] <reverend> invokeLater(Runnable), invokeAndWait(Runnable)
[17:12:45] <dangertools> that doesn't spawn any threads
[17:12:53] <blbrown_win> LordDoskias, you might also post the code.  And your issue is that your swing app won't take any other requests.  And you don't have an infinite loop in your thread run method.  When a run method completes, that thread doesn't do any more work.  That is it
[17:13:02] <reverend> dangertools: no? how come?
[17:13:11] <LordDoskias> blbrown_win: so what do you suggest?
[17:13:22] <dangertools> reverend: Runnables? not threads?
[17:13:30] <LordDoskias> oh, sorry
[17:13:37] <LordDoskias> i have an infinite loop
[17:13:41] <blbrown_win> there you go
[17:13:47] <dangertools> reverend: those two methods pass Runnables to be called by the EDT at some point, no new threads involved
[17:13:52] <LordDoskias> anyway - posting the code now
[17:14:14] <LordDoskias> http://privatepaste.com/dd8a3c50b1
[17:14:29] <blbrown_win> LordDoskias, if you don't use something like SwingUtilities, then the swing app won't accept any other input if your thread doesn't finish
[17:14:52] <LordDoskias> blbrown_win: yeah, but i want it to finish that's why i'm checking when the sound thread has finished its job
[17:14:56] <LordDoskias> and i'm closing the thread
[17:15:03] <LordDoskias> check the update method
[17:15:59] <blbrown_win>  Thread.currentThread().stop();
[17:15:59] <blbrown_win>   yea don't do that.
[17:16:15] <LordDoskias> i tried return as well
[17:16:18] <LordDoskias> i know stop is deprecated
[17:16:49] <LordDoskias> but no luck
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[17:20:17] <blbrown_win> LordDoskias, yea, I don't do much swing or mediax stuff.  might try someone else
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[17:21:35] <blbrown_win> LordDoskias, ask ojacobson
[17:21:43] <ojacobson> aw, why'd you
[17:21:45] <ojacobson> ~logs
[17:21:46] <javabot> channel logs can be found at http://www.antwerkz.com/javabot (Select the channel from the list on the left-hand side.)
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[17:22:16] <blbrown_win> ojacobson, you know stuffs, hehe
[17:22:40] <ojacobson> blbrown_win: don't advise people to use Thread.stop(), it (a) doesn't work and (b) isn't safe if it did work.
[17:22:52] <blbrown_win> ojacobson, I didn't
[17:23:10] <ojacobson> ah
[17:23:13] <ojacobson> I'm not reading that closely :)
[17:23:30] <blbrown_win> ojacobson, LordDoskias he was trying to play sound within swing on mouse click.  He needs a redesign but I am too lazy to suggest something
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[17:24:25] <blbrown_win> http://privatepaste.com/dd8a3c50b1
[17:24:40] <ojacobson> Yeah, I've got nothing. I know how to structure concurrency in Swing, and I know that's effed, but I don't have enough knowledge of the sound APIs to suggest how to fix that part.
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[18:39:00] <SJr|nx> YO YO YO
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[18:40:05] <notk0> hello could someone tell me the interes in a TreeSet?
[18:40:28] <notk0> except the log(n) complexity to search for an item?
[18:41:07] <dangertools> well, it's sorted
[18:41:54] <notk0> if I want to use it on a custom object I need to do a comparable method on that object?
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[18:45:52] <dangertools> notk0: the class either has to implement Comparable or you have to provide a Comparator
[18:46:19] <notk0> dangertools, I see, can you give a example when using TreeSet is advisable?
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[18:47:56] <dob1> hi, i have to read a file in input and i want to be sure that it is an image (jpg, png) how can i be sure of this?  i exclude to look at the extension of the file
[18:48:08] <dob1> like the file utilities on linux
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[18:49:00] <notk0> dob1, MIME
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[18:49:57] <dob1> notk0: i don't know where to look
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[18:50:56] <dob1> which package?
[18:51:31] <notk0> dob1, a minute
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[18:52:11] <notk0> dob1, I haven't work much with it but I think you may search for a 3rd party library
[18:52:13] <notk0> or code yourself
[18:53:04] <notk0> dob1, http://www.astro.keele.ac.uk/oldusers/rno/Computing/File_magic.html
[18:53:20] <dob1> i was thinking, but i have not tried, but Image class will thrown an exception if the file is not an image i think
[18:53:22] <notk0> of course a corrupted jpg with the right magic number and header can exist
[18:53:23] <dob1> maybe i can use this
[18:53:55] <notk0> dob1, I think that will be good
[18:54:07] <dob1> i try thanks
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[19:06:01] <surial> dob1: That's a particularly hairy thing to try.
[19:06:24] <surial> dob1: For example, a file can be a zip, a jar (trivially - jars are zips), a jpg, and probably a gif and perhaps even a swf all at the same time.
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[19:16:21] <mail> how can i get the width of a jpanel before it's painted
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[19:22:42] <kgrad> how do i add a facesmessage to a specific h:message tag programmatically (from a backing bean)?
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[19:55:59] <nomemory> I am working at a Java app, and I know i am facing a difficult dec. . How am i going to store hierchical data: as a folder structure + files on the disk, xml files (with indexes and stuff) or using a database ?
[19:56:07] <nomemory> This is more like a design choice.
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[19:57:08] <jonkri> i have a list in my class and i want to have a getter for it which does not allow manipulation of the list... can that be done?
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[20:00:43] <dangertools> ~~ jonkri javadoc java.util.Collections
[20:00:44] <javabot> jonkri: http://is.gd/3sZiG [JDK: java.util.Collections]
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[20:01:53] <jonkri> dangertools: how fast is unmodifiableList?
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[20:05:16] <dangertools> jonkri: how fast doing what?
[20:05:30] <jonkri> creating the new list
[20:06:04] <jonkri> i don't think i can afford creating a new list... :(
[20:06:16] <dangertools> there's no new list created. read the docs
[20:06:33] <jonkri> ok
[20:06:40] <jonkri> what's a view?
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[20:31:11] <mikemonk> hello... im having an issue with how to handle an inexistent file. Theres a class i have its called SourceReader, and its constructor creates a new BufferedReader with the string it gets as a parameter.
[20:31:11] <mikemonk> T
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[20:31:42] <Fendaril> Ok jar issues
[20:31:47] <Fendaril> how do i make an executable jar
[20:31:51] <Fendaril> not just an archive
[20:32:00] <Fendaril> the sun tutorial just taught me how to make an archive jar
[20:32:03] <Fendaril> which works like winzip
[20:32:08] <Fendaril> and thats useless to me
[20:32:12] <Fendaril> I want an executable jar
[20:32:15] <Fendaril> one you can click and run
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[20:32:52] <dtrott> ~~ Fendaril manifest
[20:32:53] <javabot> Fendaril, Manifests are a way of specifying metadata about a jar file inside the jarfile. See http://java.sun.com/javase/6/docs/technotes/guides/jar/jar.html#Manifest%20Specification
[20:33:06] <Fendaril> Ok? What does a manifest have to do with a jar
[20:33:24] <dtrott> see Main-Class
[20:33:58] <SeriousWorm> Fendaril: the simplest way is to use eclipse and export a runnable jar.
[20:34:00] <mikemonk> Theres another class called Main which creates a new SourceReader and sends it as a parameter to a a Scanner object which then gives me a NullPointerException... how can i avoid that?
[20:34:14] <SeriousWorm> click-select main class-click-click-voila, you've got a runnable jar. :D
[20:34:27] <Fendaril> hmm ok
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[20:34:30] <Fendaril> ill download eclipse thenm
[20:34:32] <Fendaril> then
[20:34:38] <Fendaril> didint get to last night
[20:34:41] <SeriousWorm> well if you use another IDE, i'm sure it has that option.
[20:34:49] <mikemonk> hello... im having an issue with how to handle an inexistent file. Theres a class i have its called SourceReader, and its constructor creates a new BufferedReader with the string it gets as a parameter. heres another class called Main which creates a new SourceReader and sends it as a parameter to a a Scanner object which then gives me a NullPointerException... how can i avoid that?
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[20:34:56] <Fendaril> i dont use any ide because i have none installed
[20:35:00] <Fendaril> but eclipse is mine of chouce
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[20:35:37] <SeriousWorm> mikemonk: what's your problem exactly?
[20:35:51] <Fendaril> <mikemonk> hello... im having an issue with how to handle an inexistent file. Theres a class i have its called SourceReader, and its constructor creates a new BufferedReader with the string it gets as a parameter. heres another class called Main which creates a new SourceReader and sends it as a parameter to a a Scanner object which then gives me a NullPointerException... how can i avoid that?
[20:35:52] <Fendaril> that
[20:36:13] <Fendaril> and mike please use pastebin
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[20:37:18] <mikemonk> i want to avoid that NullPointer exception given me by my Scanner object
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[20:38:01] <mikemonk> ~pastebin
[20:38:02] <javabot> http://rifers.org/paste - Paste the final url after you've pasted your stuff there.
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[20:38:56] <SeriousWorm> mikemonk: you aren't making sense. what do you mean, avoid that NullPointerException? avoid how?
[20:39:15] <mikemonk> http://rifers.org/paste/show/511
[20:39:32] <SeriousWorm> are you passing null as fileName?
[20:39:41] <mikemonk> thats my SourceReader class
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[20:40:19] <mikemonk> theres a FileNotFoundException in the constructor
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[20:40:35] <SeriousWorm> well that means the file hasn't been found
[20:41:18] <mikemonk> http://rifers.org/paste/show/512
[20:41:27] <mikemonk> thats my main class
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[20:41:52] <SeriousWorm> and the exception stack trace?
[20:42:02] <SeriousWorm> are you calling the program with any parameters?
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[20:42:48] <mikemonk> my scan method wich uses my sourceReader object gives me anullpointerexception... and i dont know how to avoid that
[20:43:11] <mikemonk> yes args[0] contains my file name
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[20:43:45] <mikemonk> it all works well when i have a file, but when i dont... i dont want my program to give me a nullpointer exception
[20:43:58] <SeriousWorm> the problem is in your scan() method then
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[20:45:26] <mikemonk> yeah thats what i thought... but what should i modify in my scan method
[20:45:35] <mikemonk> heres my main class again but with the scan method
[20:45:37] <mikemonk> http://rifers.org/paste/show/513
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[20:50:57] <mikemonk> Ok got which was the problem thanks :)
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[20:53:17] <SeriousWorm> cool
[20:53:44] <SeriousWorm> ##java. helping people find their errors themselves since (insert_foundation_year_here)
[20:53:54] <SeriousWorm> crap! I meant insertFoundationYearHere.
[20:54:13] <mikemonk> lol :)
[20:55:32] <Candle> ~operators
[20:55:32] <javabot> Candle, operators is http://java.sun.com/tutorial/java/nutsandbolts/operators.html
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[20:56:38] <Fendaril> ~help
[20:56:38] <javabot> for a FAQ and a quick tutorial on how to use javabot, see: http://kenai.com/projects/javabot/pages/Home
[20:56:54] <Fendaril> Wow ##java really does help
[20:57:07] <robbyoconnor> yes, i put that together initially
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[20:57:52] <Fendaril> that was you?
[20:57:55] <Fendaril> you should be op then
[20:58:02] <robbyoconnor> er no
[20:58:16] <robbyoconnor> I just knew how to use the bot -- plus i know its codebase...  or at least I used to
[20:58:22] <dtrott> Is there a cleaner/faster way to convert a byte array to a hex string than this:     http://pastie.org/857431
[20:58:54] <impl> dtrott: not that I know of.
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[21:23:55] <b0nn> if I want to write graphical animated applications that are deployed on the web, what technologies do I need to learn
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[21:26:25] <dtrott> b0nn: You mean games ?
[21:26:54] <b0nn> sure, why not
[21:27:37] <SeriousWorm> (lol @ "graphical animated applications")
[21:27:37] <b0nn> I have been chasing my tail with servlets, are they a non starter?
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[21:28:56] <dtrott> Servlets are a server side technology they are often part of the solution however there is usually a client side technology in use too.
[21:29:13] <b0nn> ok
[21:29:48] <b0nn> Is there a tutorial you can think of that discusses delivering, 2D animations using something like tomcat?
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[21:31:26] <dtrott> b0nn: You need to choose a client side technology first,  Flash, WebStart, JavaMonkeyEngine, Javascript  ........
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[21:32:05] <b0nn> I think I will be better off learning applets :)
[21:32:16] * dtrott doubts it
[21:32:18] <dangertools> ~~ b0nn applets
[21:32:20] <javabot> b0nn, Check the topic, read http://javachannel.net/wiki/pmwiki.php/FAQ/Applets - Basically, we don't support them here.  Try the sun forums at http://tinyurl.com/2q2hog; consider the new Windows/OS X/Linux 32/64bit JNLP-compatible "Plugin2" from Java 6u10 (http://java.sun.com/javase/6/webnotes/6u10/plugin2/index.html)
[21:32:30] <dtrott> in a nutshell applets suck
[21:32:38] <b0nn> I'm aware of that
[21:32:57] <b0nn> I'm also aware of the limitations of flash, javascript, webstart ...
[21:33:30] <dtrott> WebStart is not very limited, you can invoke a full 3d engine via webstart
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[21:34:16] <b0nn> From the limited user testing I have done, webstart has barriers
[21:34:30] <dtrott> such as ...
[21:34:46] <b0nn> people displayed an unwillingness to engage with the technology
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[21:35:46] <dtrott> Engage meaning install ?
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[21:40:36] <X-Scale> I would add Adobe AIR too. It doesn't feel heavy and the instalation is straightforward.
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[21:42:49] <dtrott> Ardor is looking like it could be quite nice too:   http://blog.renanse.com/2009/08/latest-ardor3d-l4d-screens.html
[21:43:18] <SeriousWorm> ~ardor3d++
[21:43:19] <javabot> ardor3d has a karma level of 1, SeriousWorm
[21:43:19] <racarter> i have a servlets/jsp question: how do you make a jsp file accessible to servlets but not to people via a url?
[21:43:39] <SeriousWorm> you should really try the ardor3d demos, there are a lot of them and are pretty cool too
[21:43:51] <racarter> i tried putting the jsp in WEB-INF but then doing request.dispatch to the jsp no longer seems to work...
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[21:44:02] <CodeWar> g
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[21:52:27] <mail> is there anyway i can apply a blur to an Ellipse2D
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[21:53:18] <jtheuer> no, blur is a pixel effect, not a vector operation
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[22:08:13] <svm_invictvs> It's got more pixels!
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[22:08:57] <Fendaril> Dtrott that was a very intelligent hx converter program
[22:09:04] <Fendaril> hex*
[22:09:18] <Fendaril> Ok, I can make jars with eclipse now
[22:09:25] <Fendaril> but how do i make a double clickable one
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[22:09:30] <cheeser> ~manifest
[22:09:31] <javabot> Manifests are a way of specifying metadata about a jar file inside the jarfile. See http://java.sun.com/javase/6/docs/technotes/guides/jar/jar.html#Manifest%20Specification
[22:09:35] <noodman> hi, can anyone tell me how to read input from the terminal....not the input entered by the keyboard...but by another program for exmaple?
[22:09:42] <cheeser> ~io
[22:09:43] <javabot> cheeser, Io is one of the most exotic places in the Solar System.  It's the most volcanic body known, with lava flows, lava lakes, and giant calderas across its surface.  But this is Java, not astronomy, so you're probably looking for this:  http://java.sun.com/tutorial/essential/io
[22:09:45] <noodman> example*
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[22:10:38] <Fendaril> Cheeser:unfortunately I already have a manifest
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[22:10:47] <Fendaril> And that didnt answer my question
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[22:11:21] <dtrott> Fendaril: Yes it did
[22:11:26] <dangertools> Fendaril: the manifest needs a valid main-class entry
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[22:11:32] <SeriousWorm> Fendaril: what happens when you double click a jar file?
[22:11:43] <Fendaril> it opens up in an archive
[22:11:48] <SeriousWorm> right. so, what's the problem?=
[22:11:59] <Fendaril> isnt it suppose to magicaly run?
[22:12:03] <Fendaril> like output
[22:12:09] <Fendaril> I didint want just an archive
[22:12:13] <SeriousWorm> right. so windows automagically opens your jar in an archiver. why is that?
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[22:12:22] <Fendaril> this is linux
[22:12:25] <Fendaril> not windows....
[22:12:28] <Fendaril> for m anyway
[22:12:34] <SeriousWorm> is is perhaps because your file associations, which have absolutely nothing with java in common whatsoever, are set to open up jars in an archiver?
[22:12:53] <Fendaril> How can I change that.....
[22:12:57] <SeriousWorm> the os doesn't matter, since you are obviously not using the commandline.
[22:13:10] <AMcBain> If you want it to reliably run the program, you have to use "java -jar my.jar" from the command line.
[22:13:11] <SeriousWorm> no idea - i'm not windows. ^^ try #linux
[22:13:15] <SeriousWorm> i'm on*
[22:13:34] <SeriousWorm> AMcBain: erm, on windows you just double click the jar, if it's properly set up. probably on other systems too, if they are properly set up.
[22:13:51] <SeriousWorm> it should be set up so the java vm opens it.
[22:13:51] <Fendaril> AMcBain: how can I set it up to automatically do that
[22:13:52] <noodman> how do i read output from the terminal?
[22:13:53] <AMcBain> SeriousWorm, right, but only if that OS has a "JAR launcher" sort of program
[22:13:56] <dtrott> AMcBain: Sometimes it a single click :-P
[22:13:59] <cheeser> knowing your os++
[22:14:03] <cheeser> noodman: read the io link
[22:14:15] <noodman> what link
[22:14:15] <SeriousWorm> AMcBain: erm, java is a "jar launcher" :)
[22:14:15] <noodman> ?
[22:14:20] <AMcBain> Fendaril, create a shell script?
[22:14:22] <SeriousWorm> java as in the command.
[22:14:31] <SeriousWorm> (program, java VM, jre, whatever.)
[22:14:40] <noodman> the io API?
[22:15:01] <AMcBain> SeriousWorm, no, I mean a program which knows that JARs should be launched with Java. That requires a bit more than just knowing the file is run with Java because you have to use "java -jar my.jar"
[22:15:13] <cheeser> ~~ noodman io
[22:15:14] <javabot> noodman, For information on handling input/output in java see http://java.sun.com/tutorial/essential/io
[22:15:27] <AMcBain> Somebody has to handle it, but anyway, I'd go to the appropriate OS channel on Freenode and see if help could be gotten there.
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[22:15:29] <SeriousWorm> AMcBain: it's called an operating system.
[22:15:42] <SeriousWorm> or an OS shell.
[22:15:50] <daedra> how do you do string formatting in Java? I would like to represent 5.3333333... as 5.33
[22:16:02] <AMcBain> SeriousWorm, right, so the OS itself is going to build in an exception just for Java to know that JARs get run as java -jar ... I doubt that.
[22:16:31] <toZi> daedra: use decimalformat class
[22:16:32] <daedra> this is similar to c's  printf("%.2f"), n
[22:16:40] <AMcBain> NumberFormat
[22:16:43] <daedra> ok
[22:16:47] <AMcBain> of which DecimalFormat is a subclass
[22:17:00] <Fendaril> Isnt there a String.format()?
[22:17:22] <AMcBain> ~javadoc String.format(*)
[22:17:22] <cheeser> yes
[22:17:24] <javabot> AMcBain: http://is.gd/3Scnf [JDK: java.lang.String.format(Locale,String,Object[])]; http://is.gd/3Scnk [JDK: java.lang.String.format(String,Object[])]
[22:17:34] <Fendaril> daedra
[22:17:40] <Fendaril> use String.format instead
[22:17:52] <Fendaril> if you want a printf() thingy
[22:18:11] <Fendaril> youc an also do System.out.printf()
[22:18:17] <Fendaril> daedra there?
[22:18:49] <Fendaril> ~javadoc System.out.printf(*)
[22:18:50] <javabot> I don't know of any documentation for System.out.printf(*)
[22:18:52] <daedra> Fendaril: hi
[22:18:56] <daedra> so what should I do?
[22:19:03] <Fendaril> System.out.printf()
[22:19:28] <daedra> yeah..
[22:19:40] <Fendaril> what happened?
[22:19:40] <daedra> String.format never would have worked :(
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[22:19:48] <AMcBain> Fendaril, that would be a method on PrintWriter
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[22:20:08] <AMcBain> (out is a PrintWriter instance)
[22:20:32] <Fendaril> AMcBain: So System.out.printf() isnt the C thing he is looking for?
[22:20:44] <AMcBain> I have no idea, read the JavaDoc on it.
[22:21:14] <noodman> still don't get it....i want my program to beable to read and write into the console like, i.e. control anothe rprogram running?
[22:21:46] <Fendaril> ~javadoc Scanner
[22:21:46] <javabot> Fendaril: http://is.gd/3iWx7 [JDK: java.util.Scanner]
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[22:22:05] <daedra> Fendaril: yeah printf works
[22:22:13] <daedra> just like c ^_^
[22:22:53] <dinesh___> hm, what's the difference between a jpanel and a jframe? what should I use for a login form ?
[22:23:24] <dtrott> ~~ noodman javadoc ProcessBuilder
[22:23:25] <javabot> noodman: http://is.gd/3WJec [JDK: java.lang.ProcessBuilder]
[22:23:35] <Fendaril> dtrott
[22:23:39] <Fendaril> I think Scanner is better
[22:23:54] <Fendaril> he wants to read/write from console
[22:23:59] <Fendaril> so Scanner can read things
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[22:24:55] <LordQuackstar> Quick question: Is creating lots and lots of threads over an extended period of time resource consuming at all?\
[22:27:22] <cheeser> of course
[22:27:55] <cheeser> the threads themselves are relatively cheap memory wise.  but they'll take CPU time and of course any state held by the thread will take memory.
[22:28:30] <SeriousWorm> LordQuackstar: use a thread pool
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[22:28:47] <LordQuackstar> Thread pool?
[22:28:54] <SeriousWorm> read up on java.util.concurrent
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[22:29:00] <LordQuackstar> I have
[22:29:11] <SeriousWorm> well then read up on thread pools :)
[22:29:17] <cheeser> sounds like you should read up again
[22:29:18] <cheeser> 8^)=
[22:29:27] <LordQuackstar> cheeser: Is the GC reliable enough to get rid of finished threads?
[22:29:50] <SeriousWorm> LordQuackstar: you aren't hearing me.
[22:30:11] <SeriousWorm> http://java.sun.com/docs/books/tutorial/essential/concurrency/pools.html
[22:30:14] <SeriousWorm> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thread_pool_pattern
[22:30:14] <LordQuackstar> SeriousWorm: That was a seperate question. I'm currently reading the threadpool doc
[22:30:20] <daedra> x/wc
[22:30:23] <daedra> urm woops
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[22:32:23] <dinesh___> well threading libraries are more and more efficient on the other hand
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[22:32:36] <dinesh___> it's possible to spawn like 100'000 threads in less than 1 second nowdays afair
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[22:33:22] <dinesh___> "In tests, NPTL succeeded in starting 100,000 threads on a IA-32 in two seconds."
[22:33:26] <dinesh___> sorry, 2 seconds :P
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[22:34:06] <cheeser> LordQuackstar: GC won't touch threads that are still running.
[22:34:20] <LordQuackstar> SeriousWorm: I must of missed the Thread Pool topic while reading that tree, thanks for pointing me there!
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[22:36:23] <noodman> how can i read previous output that has been written to the terminal?
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[22:37:30] <Fendaril> Anyone know what to make?
[22:37:34] <Fendaril> Im bored
[22:37:35] <Fendaril> and need some frills
[22:38:33] <dtrott> dinesh___: You can queue them in the run queue but it takes a lot longer to actually execute them and clean up after, there also appears to be some maxiumum number of threads that can be active at any given time.
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[22:40:35] <SeriousWorm> LordQuackstar: np
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[22:46:48] <Fendaril> SeriousWorm:what should i make?
[22:46:56] <SeriousWorm> some fries
[22:47:07] <SeriousWorm> and eggs. with ketchup
[22:47:15] <SeriousWorm> thanks.
[22:47:21] <nashira> hi, does anyone know how to specify a custom action for the close button? so like, if user clicks close button, show jdialog or something similar
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[22:47:53] <SeriousWorm> try register window listener
[22:48:03] <Fendaril> SeriousWorm:Try burger king
[22:48:13] <SeriousWorm> http://java.sun.com/javase/6/docs/api/java/awt/Window.html#addWindowListener(java.awt.event.WindowListener)
[22:48:33] <nashira> oh sweet i didnt know about that
[22:48:35] <SeriousWorm> Fendaril: we don't have a burger king in croatia.
[22:48:41] <SeriousWorm> nashira: np.
[22:48:49] <nashira> thanks :)
[22:48:57] <dtrott> Fendaril: Yet !
[22:48:57] <nashira> lol croatia? im from there
[22:49:07] <Fendaril> What is a croatia
[22:49:19] <nashira> lol a country?
[22:49:29] <Fendaril> Where?
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[22:50:06] <nashira> europe? near italy? if that rings a bell
[22:50:09] <burg> hello. how can i add new libraries to java? i want to use a template engine (minitemplator)
[22:50:18] <Fendaril> Im a yankee
[22:50:18] <dtrott> former  yugoslavia
[22:50:20] <Fendaril> I wouldn't know
[22:50:33] <pingbat> lmao
[22:50:41] <nashira> lol
[22:50:49] <nashira> u dont know where italy is?
[22:50:51] <nashira> :p
[22:51:06] <pingbat> propagate the sterotype
[22:51:16] <pingbat> surely he's kidding
[22:51:21] <Fendaril> Nope. I want to leave this country
[22:51:22] <noodman> ha u'd think
[22:51:23] <Fendaril> tho
[22:51:28] <Fendaril> for a visit
[22:51:39] <SeriousWorm> Fendaril: you are from the US?
[22:51:51] <pingbat> you should totally visit europe
[22:51:52] <noodman> saw this youtube video...most americans put iran where australia was..
[22:52:09] <nashira> lol ive seen that one :D
[22:52:12] <Fendaril> No i am not from US weekly
[22:52:30] <Fendaril> I am from the united states tho
[22:52:44] <SeriousWorm> who is weekly?
[22:53:03] <pingbat> are you a southerner?
[22:53:15] <pingbat> i saw this film about yankee's
[22:53:23] <pingbat> "Sweet Home Alabama"
[22:53:39] <Fendaril> Why would I be a something that enslaved my ancestors
[22:53:46] <Fendaril> And never I will go to alabama
[22:53:49] <Fendaril> heart of racists
[22:53:51] <SeriousWorm> http://www.craigslist.org/about/best/pdx/1442403975.html
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[22:54:06] <pingbat> what's a yankee then?
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[22:54:53] <Fendaril> A american revolution term
[22:55:56] <pingbat> new england?
[22:56:37] <Fendaril> Hmm vnm
[22:56:44] <Fendaril> I wanna go to europe
[22:56:52] <noodman> i live in europe..
[22:56:56] <pingbat> is eclipse the accepted Java IDE?
[22:57:24] <Fendaril> yes
[22:57:24] <dtrott> pingbat: For free or commerial ?
[22:57:26] <Fendaril> its the best
[22:57:29] <noodman> anyone know how to read another programs output to the terminal?
[22:57:34] <Fendaril> all other IDE's are trash
[22:57:34] <pingbat> free for OS X
[22:57:38] <dtrott> ~idewar
[22:57:39] <javabot> dtrott, I have no idea what idewar is.
[22:57:42] <Fendaril> except for netbeans
[22:57:48] <pingbat> lol
[22:57:51] <noodman> netbeans, i don't like
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[22:58:47] <pingbat> i htink i'll get eclipse and do some of your fun tutorials
[22:59:10] <Fendaril> I still need something to make in java
[22:59:51] <pingbat> i want to interface some hardware to a Java app (SUMP)
[23:00:11] <pingbat> but i think hardware + Java -> sad times
[23:00:27] <hiredman> write a lisp interpreter
[23:00:37] <dtrott> pingbat: If you have a couple of hundred bucks to drop you should probably eval Intelli-J
[23:01:07] <AMcBain> dtrott, you can eval it without spending any money
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[23:01:38] <dtrott> Yea but there's no point if your not planing to spend the money anyway.
[23:02:07] <AMcBain> So you're saying the community edition is crap then? ;)
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[23:02:34] <dtrott> The big miss is lack of spring support
[23:02:43] <selckin> p
[23:02:46] <selckin> p
[23:02:57] <selckin> sorry
[23:03:01] * AMcBain hands selckin a :
[23:03:19] <selckin> window focus fail :(
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[23:03:47] <dtrott> If community edition had of included spring support I probably would not have requested Ultimate Edition.
[23:04:15] * Fendaril gives AMcBain a runtime error
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[23:04:36] <jonkri> am i overdoing my documentation? ;) http://paste.pocoo.org/show/186457/
[23:05:42] <AMcBain> javadoc, no. comments every other line, probably
[23:05:59] <AMcBain> Especially for such short code
[23:06:05] <SeriousWorm> http://www.jon3d.org/ lol
[23:06:07] <SeriousWorm> Service Unavailable
[23:06:19] <selckin> jonkri: a = a +1; // add 1 to a, is not documentation
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[23:06:23] <SeriousWorm> so, what is Jon3D?
[23:06:24] <pingbat> sorry, went afk
[23:07:06] <pingbat> umm, no bucks to spend
[23:07:17] <dtrott> You primarily need documenation when you don't want to read the code hence inline comments are only normally needed to clarify something complex.
[23:07:32] <pingbat> thanks guys, eclipse it is
[23:07:36] <jonkri> SeriousWorm: a 3d library. see http://dev.jon3d.org ... i havn't released an initial version yet
[23:07:47] <SeriousWorm> We have just started working on this page. Everything should be set up in a couple of days.
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[23:08:08] <jonkri> SeriousWorm: you can see the code at least :)
[23:08:11] <SeriousWorm> :)
[23:08:20] <AMcBain> the website is pretty slow to load
[23:08:25] <jonkri> and, browse to documentation and you can see the beginning of the manual
[23:08:33] <jonkri> AMcBain: yes, my home server is not the quickest of cats...
[23:08:59] <jonkri> selckin: so you think the comments are redundant? i think onTimerEvent is easier to read this way, but then it might be because i'm a noob ;)
[23:09:23] <jonkri> AMcBain: ^ that was to you too
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[23:13:05] <dtrott> jonkri: You might want to look through some google code for what they think is appropriate comments:   http://code.google.com/p/protobuf/source/browse/trunk/java/src/main/java/com/google/protobuf/DynamicMessage.java
[23:14:18] <jonkri> thanks dtrott... @code and @link... nice :)
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[23:20:37] <dob1> what is the difference in jdbc type between binary, varbinary and longbinary?
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[23:26:27] <dinesh___> probably the max length
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[23:28:13] <tolland> if I do System.out.println("x2:"+(0 * 100) + (100));
[23:28:23] <tolland> I get x2:0100
[23:28:36] <mustelo> I'm suppose to implement a doubly-linked list without loops or branching. can someone give me a hint?
[23:28:41] <tolland> is that right, why not 100?
[23:29:30] <dangertools> tolland: because you concatenate "0" to "100"
[23:29:51] <tolland> how to explicity add integers?
[23:30:05] <dinesh___> ((0 * 100) + (100))
[23:30:13] <dinesh___> got it ?
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[23:31:08] <dinesh___> it's evaluater from the left to the right, that's why you need more ()
[23:31:13] <dinesh___> ed*
[23:32:02] <dinesh___> that looks hard to me mustelo ..
[23:32:24] <mustelo> agreed
[23:32:48] <dinesh___> what operations do you need ?
[23:33:01] <dangertools> sounds like a set of recursive operations
[23:33:37] <mustelo> dangertools, how to recurse without base case?
[23:33:45] <dinesh___> even if done recursivly, there's still a base case that requires a condition
[23:33:48] <dinesh___> yeah
[23:34:20] <dinesh___> or perhaps you need a dirty workaround to suppress the condition
[23:34:32] <mustelo> I need insertFront, insertBack, size, and map
[23:34:32] <dinesh___> i've got a fried, an asm guru, whose job is to do that :P
[23:34:45] <mustelo> what do you mean suppress the condition?
[23:34:54] <dinesh___> optimize code by removing if and this kind of stuff
[23:35:08] <dinesh___> well dirty rewrites
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[23:35:11] <dinesh___> it makes the code unreadable
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[23:35:36] <dinesh___> oh
[23:35:40] <dinesh___> actually it's fairly easy lol
[23:35:46] <dinesh___> for insertFront for example
[23:35:50] <dangertools> well, insertFront/Back are easy
[23:35:54] <dinesh___> just assume that there is more than 1 element
[23:35:56] <dinesh___> in a try catch
[23:36:01] <dinesh___> and in case of NullPointerException
[23:36:04] <mustelo> forgot to mention no try-catch :)
[23:36:09] <dinesh___> then assume that it is the base case
[23:36:09] <dinesh___> ah lol
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[23:38:07] <dinesh___> well i'd suggest then to just "implement" it by using an already available implementation (which then hides the branching/loops/etc)
[23:38:13] <dinesh___> but that's probably also not an option
[23:38:31] <mustelo> well it's a "something to think about" for a class I'm taking
[23:38:42] <mustelo> so clearly it's not for anything functional
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[23:39:20] <dinesh___> so it might perhaps not even be possible
[23:39:48] <dinesh___> or you could try with the lazy operators
[23:39:55] <dinesh___> i'm not sure if that would be considered as branches
[23:40:05] <dinesh___> condition1 && other_code
[23:40:08] <dinesh___> without an if
[23:40:29] <mustelo> dinesh___, not allowed
[23:40:33] <dinesh___> if condition1 evaluates to false, other_code is not executed
[23:40:44] <mustelo> yeah, I tried. rejected.
[23:40:56] <mustelo> my prof mentioned something about sentinel nodes
[23:41:03] <mustelo> so I'm looking into that
[23:41:38] <mustelo> I'm trying to think if I overload some of the methods so that something different gets called when I get to the end
[23:41:53] <dinesh___> or
[23:42:00] <dinesh___> somethings that has to do with OOP
[23:42:09] <mustelo> what do you mean?
[23:42:30] <dinesh___> classes that extends eachother
[23:42:35] <dinesh___> with method overriding
[23:42:42] <dinesh___> and then depending on the instance of the class
[23:42:49] <dinesh___> it will execute different code
[23:43:00] <dinesh___> so that's also a kind of if
[23:43:06] <mustelo> right, that's what I was thinking
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[23:43:13] <mustelo> I'll try to code something up
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