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[02:49:02] <TheSHAD0W> http://yro.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/12/11/2321221
[02:49:57] <TheSHAD0W> That should make a lot of fun for BT trackers, 'specially script-based ones.
[02:50:59] <The_8472> well, i guess they're scanning for <html>
[02:51:06] <The_8472> otherwise it'd also corrupt http downloads
[02:51:19] <TheSHAD0W> Mmm, true.
[02:51:41] <The_8472> though it would be fun even if it is "just" corrupting your uncompressed tarball full of html pages...
[02:51:54] <The_8472> or screws up with AJAX
[02:52:01] <The_8472> or...
[02:52:23] <The_8472> iframes
[02:52:58] <DeHackEd> I always felt that if my ISP did something to screw with my connection, I would do something to screw with their system. Like open up a few thousand HTTP sockets and just sit on them for a while. See how it handles that.
[02:54:08] <The_8472> a few thousand? a decent tcp stack should be capable of handleing a million or so as long as they're idle :)
[02:54:41] <DeHackEd> on their end I mean. they have all these sockets open, with some state loaded to do parsing on the sockets.
[02:54:59] <The_8472> sort of an inverse -j TARPIT
[02:55:14] <DeHackEd> I mean, I don't care on my end. I'll just use pcap and another machine to just throw packets at each other, screw the TCP stack. I don't care about the sessions.
[02:55:42] <The_8472> but they're probably not doing it completely stateful
[02:56:55] <The_8472> reduce window size to 1 and see if their system goes amok :)
[02:57:08] <DeHackEd> NOW we're talking.
[02:57:52] <The_8472> hrrm, not the window, you'd have to do too much ACKing
[02:57:56] <The_8472> the MSS might be a better idea
[02:58:00] <DeHackEd> oh, but I don't.
[02:58:04] <DeHackEd> :)
[02:58:19] <The_8472> if you don't ack then they won't send
[02:59:01] <DeHackEd> well, I can send my request, say I want a tiny window size, receive my header, then discard the socket without sending FIN or RST.
[02:59:39] <DeHackEd> they'd need to maintain some state as they'd be screwing with my sequence numbers at a minimum
[02:59:47] <The_8472> if you want to pull the connection into a wait state you have to reduce the window to zero
[03:00:00] <The_8472> normal tcp stacks will hold the socket for about 1-2 minutes then
[03:00:20] <The_8472> longer if you're ACKing occasionally
[03:01:16] <The_8472> window of 65k and a mss of 1 would be fun... they'd send you 65k packets (assuming a stupid implementation that allow a MSS of 1, i think none does)
[03:01:40] <DeHackEd> hmm... trying to remember the specifics of the ACK packet... if you ACK a total of zero bytes, it means you're losing packets and need retransmission, right?
[03:02:02] <The_8472> yep
[03:07:43] <DeHackEd> would that serve as a keepalive?
[03:08:05] <DeHackEd> ensure the socket stays alive (I know 0 window is supposed to do the same) without getting new data?
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[03:29:55] <TheSHAD0W> I think, if this becomes common, we're going to see a lot of servers move to https.
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[03:38:11] <TheSHAD0W> http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=3984898
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[04:02:48] <kjetilho> w00t!
[04:11:38] <TheSHAD0W> [20:10] Washu-chan: i um
[04:11:39] <TheSHAD0W> [20:10] Washu-chan: absolutely think it's wrong to add l33t speak to a dictionary
[04:11:39] <TheSHAD0W> [20:10] The SHAD0W.: LOL
[04:11:39] <TheSHAD0W> [20:11] The SHAD0W.: I can see the truthiness in your opinion.
[04:11:39] <TheSHAD0W> [20:11] Washu-chan: -_-
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[10:38:28] <init0> moin
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[11:05:27] <init0> http://xkcd.com/356/
[11:06:35] <The_8472> seen it, remembered that we had it in our 2nd electronics semester, smiled :)
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[21:36:18] <axod> hi I have aquestion about the results of scrapes... anyone familiar with the protocol in here?
[21:37:25] <kjetilho> sure
[21:37:44] <axod> I was checking a tracker for a particular torrent,
[21:37:46] <kjetilho> but the scrape isn't *really* a part of the protocol.
[21:38:02] <axod> and the 'Downloaded' stat went *down*... I'm just trying to understand how/why that might happen
[21:38:13] <axod> ah ok... sure undocumented extension?
[21:38:22] <kjetilho> yeah, more like a convention
[21:38:28] <axod> ok
[21:38:33] <kjetilho> some clients more or less rely on it, though
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[21:39:05] <kjetilho> but that's weird. perhaps it was a load balanced setup?
[21:39:14] <axod> oh true that could be it,
[21:39:35] <axod> I was wondering if perhaps periodically the server checks for bad hosts or something and maybe then discounts them
[21:39:45] <axod> but possible it was a load balance. I should check the IP
[21:39:50] <axod> thanks for pointing that out
[21:40:13] <kjetilho> the Downloaded stat is purely scouts honour anyway
[21:40:40] <kjetilho> clients can report anything without the tracker being able to verify it
[21:40:42] <kjetilho> not very useful to take it seriously
[21:41:52] <DWKnight> downloaded stat as in the number of completed downloads?
[21:41:56] <axod> sure I noticed that
[21:42:09] <axod> number of times the state=complete or something as reported by client
[21:42:18] <axod> but that's why I was surprised to see it go down :)
[21:42:45] <DWKnight> that is most likely to go down for:
[21:42:50] <DWKnight> 1> load balanced setup
[21:43:01] <DWKnight> 2> tracker that periodically discards statistics
[21:43:10] <DWKnight> 3> tracker that discards completed statistics on close
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[21:45:38] <DWKnight> very few load balanced setups are perfectly syncronized
[21:45:46] <DWKnight> even fewer stay that way
[21:45:47] <axod> ah ok thanks for that... I'm not going to pay too much attention to it as it's self reported, but useful to know
[21:45:52] <axod> sure
[21:46:06] <DWKnight> take it from someone who has run one for like 3-4 years
[21:46:44] <axod> presumably the Complete/Incomplete stats are likely to be more accurate
[21:46:48] <axod> obviously still client reported,
[21:49:38] <DWKnight> usually more accurate
[21:50:49] <DWKnight> but ghosts need to be taken into consideration there
[21:52:49] <axod> ghosts?
[21:53:06] <DWKnight> peers that aren't there but the tracker still thinks they are
[21:55:19] <axod> ah ok
[21:55:39] <axod> so to get more accurate stats you'd want to connect to peers themself
[21:56:15] <DWKnight> and those connections aren't guaranteed because of firewalls and nat
[22:02:02] <axod> sure
[22:02:25] <axod> is there typically any way to get more than 50 peers from the tracker?
[22:02:30] <axod> seems odd to have that limit to me
[22:02:59] <kjetilho> the size of the peer list is an important factor in the bandwidth usage of a tracker
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[22:03:36] <axod> hrm.... yet I can go to /scrape and be given 11meg of info for all torrents ;)
[22:03:47] <axod> from some trackers anyway
[22:04:35] <DWKnight> if you're accepting incoming connections properly, you don't need more than 10
[22:05:26] <axod> true, true
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December 12, 2007 